[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter- Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor will officially begin on Monday 7/5.

BB has kindly volunteered to lead off discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[BittenBuggy]

Ok - I am still not crystal clear on what ‘present the chapter’ means so bear with me. I’m going to bullet them to make it more simplistic.

• The Vanyar, the Noldor and a portion of the Teleri are now in Aman.
• The first letters were devised by Rumil
• The King of Tiron is Finwe and he marries his first wife Míriel
• They have a son - Fëanor - but Míriel says she can’t go on living because too much of her spirit has gone into Fëanor
• Miriel goes to the gardens of Lorien and dies (her spirit leaves her body)
• Finwe is very sad but he now has a little bundle of joy to dote upon
• Fëanor grew tall and masterful and all that. He ‘bettered’ the letters Rumil had previously scripted and he began to fashion all sorts of jewels.
• He married Nerdanel early in his life and she gave him seven sons.
• Then Finwe petitions to the Valar so that he can take a new wife. Indis the Fair!
• He marries her and she gives him two sons - Fingolfin and Finarfin.- whom Feanor hates along with their mother.
• Now, by this time, Melkor had spent three ages - his allotted jail time - in Mandos and it was time for him to be released.
• Melkor went before the Valar and told them he would be good - help the elfies even.
• So Melkor is out and about, devising plans of corruption again.
• He though the Vanayar too close to the Valar and the Teleri too week for his purposes, so he set about ‘helping’ the Noldor and instructing them in the ways of crafts - not yet revealing his evil purposes.
• He paid special attention to Fëanor, seeing him as the most promising pupil but after a while, Fëanor no longer took his counsel.

If that wasnt what I was supposed to do, I'm sorry!

[sindohte]

That was perferct BB You did exactly what I meant by "presenting" to the group.

Okay folks, time to discuss!!!

[BittenBuggy]

Well, I guess I'll start discussing then...

“In those days the Eldar became full-grown in stature of body and of mind, and the Noldor advanced ever in skill and knowledge;”

I think the ‘full-grown in stature of body’ is an interesting concept. Does that mean that before they were still ‘children’ because it doesn’t seem like it. They were organized into large ‘clans’ and had kings and made tough decisions (some of the Teleri deciding to remain behind). Also, does that mean that only the Elves of Light grew to full stature? Or Elves everywhere? The Dark Elves are somewhat forgotten until later in ‘Of the Sindar.’ But during the War of the Ring Elves were simply Elves. The only passage I could find in the Silm stating specifically was about the Nandor who became ‘unlike their kin.’

‘Then it was that the Noldor first bethought them of letters, and Rúmil of Tirion was the name of the loremaster who first achieved fitting signs for the recording of speech and song, some for graving upon metal or in stone, others for drawing with brush or with pen.’

I thought each Elven name was different? And yet again we have another Rúmil - a Noldo this time, not a Silvan. Obviously not the same elf. But hooray for letters! In order to actually have a civilization, a form of writing is imperative, before that it is only a ‘society.’ That’s a nice historical statement from Tolkien regarding the first push into Elvendom.

'In that time was born in Eldamar, in the house of the King in Tirion upon the crown of Túna, the eldest of the sons of Finwë, and the most beloved.'

Well, its about bloody time. Although I have always felt badly for Indis’s sons since Fëanor was the eldest (and the favourite) I see a bit of an early Denethor & sons relationship. Their father loved them both, but Fëanor and Boromir would always be superior. Of course, that has been a cultural stamp since the dawn of time - the eldest son being favoured.

‘Curufinwë was his name, but by his mother he was called Fëanor, Spirit of Fire; and thus he is remembered in all the tales of the Noldor.’

I think it is sweet that Feanor kept his mother-name in remembrance of her. He could have very well have taken on a new one, but it was respectful, done out of love. For all Feanor’s haughty naughtiness, he loved his parents. One of the most moving lines in the Silm ‘for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?’ Oh that just gives me chills...

‘And when she had named mm, she said to Finwë: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.'

I don’t care for Míriel at all. I have always seen her as being very selfish and weak, and unwilling to take on the responsibility of her son. Such as when she says:

‘It is indeed unhappy,’ said Míriel, 'and I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after.’

Its like geez woman! At least stick around and help raise the welp. Instead she goes off to find peace in Mandos and leave her husband. *Sigh* She just makes me mad.

‘He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark; in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his [Feanor] courses by counsel, none by force. He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand.’
Love that. All the arrogance and passion and fire. Makes you want to ravish him and thump him a good one upside the head at the same time. Defiantly an interesting - and difficult - elf.

‘The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë.’

I think that shows the progression of his work. From child-like creations (well - what would be in comparison) to the Silmarils he made later.

‘Nerdanel also was firm of will, but more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them, and at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot; but his later deeds grieved her, and they became estranged. Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all.’

Ah, words on Nerdanel. She is spoke of little, but Tolkien gives her so much underlying character! You can just see her tearing into her husband for being an arse. Yet their love story is tragic, like most in the Silm, but none less beautiful. And heck - seven sons? Busy, busy elves.

'The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons.’

Ah, we get to see the potential battiness of all step-children. Hates the mom, hates the other kids and then moves away and ignores his family.

‘In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.’

I think that is unfair to blame everything on Finwe - who just wanted love and children! After his stupid first wife left him. I think everything should be blamed on Miriel. Can I hate that character any more?

‘But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.’

Great and glorious! Well, what else?

‘Mandos was silent’

How incredibly foreboding, just those three words. Whenever Mandos doesn’t speak - for some reason or another - terrible things always happen. For Mandos only spoke at the bidding of Manwe, since he could see the future. But that’s all Tolkien gives us - like ‘Call me Ishmael’ or Jesus wept.’ Those powerful little phrases that are so simple, yet tie in the rest of the story. Literary genius.

‘and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.’

Manwe was completely free of evil and could not comprehend it. That is so beautifully wonderful, and yet a curse at the same time. Since if Manwe had been able to see how far Melkor had fallen, he would never have released him. I see this as the tragic end to a brother’s bond. Since Manwe and Melkor were as brothers in the creations of Illuvatar.

‘The Vanyar indeed held him in suspicion, for they dwelt in the light of the Trees and were content; and to the Teleri he gave small heed, thinking them of little worth, tools too weak for his designs. But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard.’

I like that - he didn’t want to deal with the Vanyar lapdogs and the Teleri were useless. It was the Noldor he wanted. Of course... who wouldn’t?

‘none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë’

There is a twisted sense of irony in that. You get the sense that Melkor shared the most with Fëanor, yet they became the bitterest of enemies.

'For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.'

And there is wifey again! I think that shows the depth of their bond, that he wouldn’t listen to anybody except her. He obviously cared for her before rage and insanity took him. I think it would have been harder for Nerdanel to watch him become a shell of what he once was than to watch him die.

Anyhoo, wrapping up there. Everybody discuss!

[Anna]

Wow, I´m impressed!
But now I don´t know what to add. You´ve said it all, BB!

Hookay, here goes!

First of all; very good idea to present the chapter the way you did. Informative, straight to the point, accurate. Very nice, indeed.

Secondly; I couldn´t agree with you more concerning Míriel. Good lord, is she annoying! For Eru´s sake, woman, get on with your life! Get some therapy! Have your husband shag you silly! Just don´t give up like that!
Maybe she suffered from Baby Blues? I hear it´s quite depressive... Perhaps she couldn´t help it?
Anyway, it still breaks my heart when Finwë says 'Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest'.

And what´s with the line: 'But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after'? What did she mean 'in all that may come after'? Did she know something and decided to go on with her plans anyway or did she just have a hunch?

And Nerdanel! Imagine her strength! And patience! Imagine the passion between her and Fëanor! Imagine her grief when they became estranged...

It is definitely unfair to blame Finwë for what was to come! Was he supposed to go around all alone pining for Míriel for all eternity? He was, obviously, a normal and fully functional elf with a healthy libido and a wish for love.
But I can´t really blame Míriel either. After all, if she hadn´t left, Finwë wouldn´t have married Indis, and that would mean no Fingolfin or Finarfin.

'For it came to pass that Melkor, as the Valar had decreed, completed the term of his bondage, dwelling for three ages in the duress of Mandos, alone.'

That line always makes me snicker...
But, seriously, what exactly did the Valar hope to achieve by isolating him like that?! Did they honestly think he would come out of that experience a happier and more well-balanced person?

'And Nienna aided his prayer'

Now, didn´t that make her look stupid later on?!

'But Ulmo was not decieved, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget.'

Love that line! Of course Ulmo wasn´t decieved! I love that guy! And Tulkas -- imagine a Vala in frustraded and barely suppressed anger. Wonderful!

Enough of my pathetic rambles! I´ll leave you for now with another of my favourite quotes: 'This was the Noontide of the Blessed Realm, the fullness of its glory and its bliss, long in tale of years, but in memory too brief'. Magnificent!

[sindohte]

Well I took the oppposite view of Miriel. I saw her as making the ultimate sacrifice, in that she had given all of her love, strength, and even some of her soul to Feanor before birth. As a result of this transfer, she was little more than an empty shell after his birth and it made sense that she would just lay down and go to the halls of Mandos. And because of her great gift to her son, it made him the mighty Elf that he was because he was imbued not only with his own spirit, yet also with that of his mother. So I don't think she left her child arbitrarily, but because she had no other choice.

There is also the fact that a number of Tolkien's characters are motherless. And if his mother had stuck around, then there would have not been the conflict over his father taking a second wife and Feanor needing to deal with half-brothers that he felt to be interlopers. It's all about conflict - both internal and external. It makes for great reading and also sets into motion later events.

[Anna]

[Saralitazie]

Wow...BB really did say it all. I tend to agree with your point of view that Miriel was selfish; in more than one sense, because she could have not put quite so much strength into Feanor and been able to stick around to raise him and perhaps others. But on the other hand, Sind has a point. It is all about conflict. Conflict and friends - they're what make the world go 'round

My take on the Noldor is that they're like the larger portion of humanity: starting out by looking for all that's beautiful and right, and somewhere on the way, moving on to seeking for things that aren't necessarily good. In turn, this makes them prideful, and then they have to get a butt-kicking to humble them. (Remind you of the Roman Empire? They got all proud and high and mighty and they got their asses kicked too...) And then it usually starts all over again. I once heard someone call it the pride cycle - first, being humble and seeking good; looking a little on the "bad" side; being lifted up in the pride of their hearts; getting a butt-kicking; going back to the humble bit - it just keeps going.

Hm. Think that was all I had to say

[BittenBuggy]

[Andreth]

Firstly I have to warn you guys - I count Feanor as being right up there with Turin on the Biggest Dumbasses of Middle-earth List. I could probably relate to Feanor a little, I think, if he'd shown any kind of internal struggle with what he was doing - you know, just some sign of remorse or self-doubt. Just something to make you realize that he knew what he was doing was wrong and he struggled with it, but he never does that. He's just gung-ho all the way and never stops to think that he might be wrong.

Although I do realize that this is the way Tolkien meant for him to be. He was the catalyst that set the storyline in motion and his behavior was necessary to further the story. Feanor's yet another example of Tolkien blurring those lines between Good and Evil in his characters. Even in real life it's all too common that people who are highly intelligent and skilled are often lacking in moral strength. It's like they're so caught up with the higher thought processes they don't stop to consider things on a basic human level, like whether they're right or wrong.

Just my opinion, but Nerdanel seems to me to be one of those women who marry a man thinking that they can help him or change him, and she did help him to a certain extent. She just couldn't change him. That was impossible and eventually she couldn't take any more and walked away.

Miriel, I don't know about. I don't think she was a bad mother - Elves give up part of their soul (fea) with each child they bear, the mother more so than the father, and Feanor obviously took a lot from her. In HoMe it says that though she was weary, she held on for some time for Feanor's sake, but eventually succumbed to her desire not to live. Like Feanor, while her actions might not be completely understandable, they were necessary to furthering the story.

But now we have to look at Feanor's actions and wonder why did he behave the way he did, beginning with his behavior concerning the marriage of Finwe and Indis. On one hand he seems like your typical spoiled child who's had all Daddy's attention and doesn't want to share it with his new Stepmom, and especially not with his new half-siblings, and then on the other hand you have someone who more than likely had quite a bit of guilt and self-doubt to deal with concerning his mother's death. I mean, when you get right down to it, he might have felt as though he killed her just by being born. Or he could have felt as though his mother didn't care about him enough to stay with him.

I think it was a combination of both - he was used to being the center of attention and being praised, and he also felt doubts about himself, both of which led to an exaggerated sense of self-worth, and arrogant and impulsive behavior. And even though Feanor didn't want to be alone, he certainly didn't mind the thought of condemning his father to be alone after Miriel's 'death'.

I'll quit speculating about Feanor and his motivations, but suffice it to say, I'm not one of his biggest fans. As for Melkor's release, I wonder if Manwe's seclusion in Valinor didn't contribute to his naivete about Melkor's rehabilitation. Tulkas and Ulmo had more involvement with the rest of the world and therefore were a little more 'street-smart'. Manwe was like a sheltered child compared to them, rarely ever leaving his tower and never leaving Valinor itself. I think he was quick to see the good in others and slow to see the evil, and also that he *wanted* to believe that Morgoth had been rehabilitated.

So that's enough out of me.

[Andreth]

[BittenBuggy]

[Anna]

[Andreth]

[quote="BittenBuggy"]

[BittenBuggy]