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Moralanqua
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Scotland
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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject: Canon or Fanon? |
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Im such a bad girl! Im opening up this can of worms so we can all educate ourselves and maybe learn a trick or two to help with our fics.
I though we could discuss things/concepts we have that we aint sure of - like are the Canon or Fanon?
Also re-hash the big Fanfic Sporking Offenses?
Anyone wanna start? 
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I am no longer posting on the Forums. If you need me, I am lurking in the archives, reading and reviewing. You can also catch me at Demented Indigo! |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Tinni has a fantastic site detailing dozens of fanons and giving canon quotes to debunk them:
http://www.tinni.100megsfree5.com/canonNOfanon/
I even contributed one (tho I don't remember which one  ). There's a yahoo list for fanoneers, too. |
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Moralanqua
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I know. Unfortunately, some of us cant get to the yahoo group and some of us wont.  Thanks for that link to her site, it shall come in handy with research!
Im bringing this up because there has been an influx of new members whom i recognise from other sites. I know they are brimming with lots of fanon and this would be a great way to share and educate.
Example - Gil Galad, Blonde or Brunette?
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I am no longer posting on the Forums. If you need me, I am lurking in the archives, reading and reviewing. You can also catch me at Demented Indigo! |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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That is an interesting site. Thanks for posting it.
Being fairly new to all this though, since the last group/archive I wrote fan fic for didn’t use a lot of the conventional terminology, I must admit I have never heard the term ‘fanon’ before. From the disparaging tone of some of that site’s author’s comments, is ‘fanon’ a bad thing then? That has actually put me off slightly, as one of the things I like is taking gaps in the canon and filling them in, but a couple of the things on that site were ideas I had for the fic I’m working on at the moment, and that site was very negative about all of them.
On my old archive, the moderators had the opposite idea. They used to pick at me for sticking quite rigidly to canon, and preferred to stay away from that altogether, making stories purely from ‘fanon’.
I’d be very interested to hear people’s thoughts on this. Is this ‘fanon’ as bad a thing as that website implies?
Jess |
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Moralanqua
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Bad Fanon is not the ideas - its the weird twisting. For example, giving Legolas' mother dragon blood and fairy wings.... BAD.
Good fanon is the clever stuff where research is evident. One of my favs was Zee's 'elven agreeing' concept. It fits perfectly with Tolkien and shows a respect for elves being elves and not 'pretty men'. 
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | Is this ‘fanon’ as bad a thing as that website implies? |
"Fanon" generally refers to things that have been written so many times in fic that newcomers to the fandom might take them as canon. For instance, that bit about Lego being 2,981 (or whatever) years old. I've seen people become quite heated in their defence of that particular piece of misinformation.
However, it's a fine guess, and if a fanfic writer wants to use it, I don't see a problem with that (although that particular one causes a lot of us to roll our eyes  .
I don't think anyone minds folks making up details. That's what fanfiction is about. But there's a lot of really good research on that site, and knowing the actual canon brings us closer to Tolkien's vision, where I imagine all fanfiction writers want to be. After all, if we wanted to make up our own stuff, we'd be writing original fiction.
Plus, I'd really like it if people would stop using the term "she-elf". |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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OK. So I suppose when the fanon is not totally bizarre, like your example, it would be up to individual readers as to what they liked, maybe. See, I always thought that if it wasn’t stated in canon, then it was fair game, so long as I kept within the style of the original TV show / book etc., and didn’t make my characters behave abnormally so as to accommodate my ideas, if you know what I mean.
I think the problem I had before was that the writers on my group wanted fanon to BE canon, and of course it had to be THEIR fanon that was accepted, or they flamed. That was why I got sick of it and stopped writing for that archive. Funny thing with them was that theirs definitely fell into the ‘dragon wings’ category, IMO.
Sorry if I am being really thick about this and not understanding the concepts, but I reckon this is the first forum I’ve joined where I can actually ask questions about terminology and attitudes to stuff in fan fic without either being jumped on or patronised. You guys don’t know how great that is! 
Jess |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Saelbeth is NOT a canon character.
There. Thats my contribution. 
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Just kidding...
| Moralanqua wrote: | | Example - Gil Galad, Blonde or Brunette? |
Well ok, that brings me to an entirely different point regarding Canon/Fanon.
What is genetics in the world of Tolkien? Obviously they existed because an elf's hroa (sp?) resembled that of his parents. So do the same laws of genetics apply there as here? For instance... Fingolfin's hair colour.
Finwe had dark hair. Nerdanel had red hair - Feanor inherits dark hair.
Finwe had dark hair. Indis had blonde/fair hair - Finarfin inherits blond hair.
It is never stated what colour Fingolfin’s hair was. However, the dominant elvish hair gene was brown/dark hair. So Finarfin had a 1:4 chance of getting blond hair and he got it. Is it REALLY probable that Fingolfin also had blond hair? I say no. (But since we don't know FOR SURE it is still fanon)
I could talk about this all day... So, thoughts anyone?
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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AranelMinyatur
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 60
Location: Western Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Moralanqua wrote: | | One of my favs was Zee's 'elven agreeing' concept. |
I love that 'elven agreeing' concept! Oh how I wish we could do that!! No more birth control or abortion! "What a wonderful world it would be...la la la".
Sorry....off topic....*slapping hand*
Maybe there should be warnings at the beginning of stories loaded with fanon?? |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm too lazy to go edit so...
About fanon stuff - Generally I am not very leniant about that sort of thing. I am very particular about getting canon details correct and other people getting canon details correct Because where would we be if everybody thought Valinor was under water and Legolas sailed off and drown? (Sorry - I think Sind or somebody told me about a fic like that.)
That is one of the only things I would ever rip into an author about really. Grammar/spelling, format, none of that REALLY bothers me. I just dont understand - if the knowledge is there... use it!
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Hathor
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 346
Location: Lancashire, England
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, fanon. I seem to have very little experience of it in LOTR, for weird reasons - perhaps I'm too indoctrinated? - but I can only dib in my Harry Potter stuff. It's all personal, right? For example... I rather like the idea that Sirius and Remus were into glamrock and glitter, despite there being little canonical evidence of it. On the flip side, I can't be done with fanon's view of Draco Malfoy. (He's an arrogant little twit and that's the end of it.)
Fanon is a good thing when filling in little gaps about characters and places we don't know much about. Fanon is a bad thing when there's blatent evidence against it and people insist on writing it anyway.
Oh my god! She-Elf! People who write that need to be shot. The WK said it as an insult, dammit! Would you like being called "girl-man", eh?
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Owner of 'Just Another Hole' and Lindir, The Pretty Noldo Totty
Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis... |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Finwe had dark hair. Nerdanel had red hair - Feanor inherits dark hair. ... So, thoughts anyone? |
My dark-eyed mother-in-law is still trying to figure out how all of her kids and grandkids ended up with bright blue eyes. Even in humans, genetics can be kooky that way.
I tend to avoid describing haircolor if possible. Physical appearance is rarely a plot point in my stories (for which I am proud). Although I did mention it once and received one of my favorite reviews ever, something to the effect of "Hey, ho: Faramir has black hair!" You know, 'cause my movieversing him in one phrase really changed the story.  |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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You're a much better person than me Viv  I'll stop reading a fic if it is inacurate.
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Hathor wrote: | | Would you like being called "girl-man", eh? |
 Oh dearie..too much..
One piece of canon I'd like confirmed, because my brain is going  on me today: to Elves, joining/making-love/rutting-like-crazy-bunnies/however-you-prefer-it was actually binding for all eternity. In otherwords, Elves didn't run around doing "it" with every joe off the street - they only had one partner, for life. I am correct here, am I not?
Gah, my memory has gone out the window today 
Thinking about it, I'm not so sure if I really want to know the answer to my question..because that would put some serious holes in my pervy fancying
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"Society does not want free men. They torment freedom, democracy, anything you want. But they do not want free men. Society wants conditioned men; men who march in step." - Henri Charriere
-Litzy the Lush |
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