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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | Even in real life it's all too common that people who are highly intelligent and skilled are often lacking in moral strength. It's like they're so caught up with the higher thought processes they don't stop to consider things on a basic human level, like whether they're right or wrong. |
Anna, that's scarily true - and profound. I think that most people don't realize that, so they blindly trust geniuses to do what's right and when things go wrong, they say, "what the hell happened?!" Look as Spiderman, for example. Two brilliant men, both looking to further science and technology for the good of mankind, and both 'fell'. Both became hideous perversions of what they once were, and both died thereafter.
I totally agree with your point of view on Feanor - I just couldn't figure out how to pontificate about it myself  Maybe when I get older and wiser and discover how to better express myself 
I'm enjoying this discussion very much! Helps round out my point of view on Feanor, etc., and more fully decide what I think about them.
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"Society does not want free men. They torment freedom, democracy, anything you want. But they do not want free men. Society wants conditioned men; men who march in step." - Henri Charriere
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I thunk a thought -
Feanor shows 'feeling' of sort beneath his insanity (which is really what it was):
"In the morning the host was mustered, but of Feanor's seven sons only six were to be found. Then Ambarussa went pale with fear 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you called Ambarto)?' he said. 'He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it is thought (and no doubt Feanor guessed wthis also) that it was in the mind of Ambarto to sail his ship back [afterwards?] and rejoin Nerdanel; for he had been much [?shocked] by the deed of his father.
'That ship I destroyed first,' said Feanor (hiding his own dismay.)"
See see? 
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Anna wrote: | 'For it came to pass that Melkor, as the Valar had decreed, completed the term of his bondage, dwelling for three ages in the duress of Mandos, alone.'
That line always makes me snicker...
But, seriously, what exactly did the Valar hope to achieve by isolating him like that?! Did they honestly think he would come out of that experience a happier and more well-balanced person? |
You're right - it was a Valarian time-out. 'Melkor, you go sit in the corner for three ages and you'd better come out with a better attitude, mister!'  Maybe he'd have learned more if they'd have made him help clean up the mess he'd made instead of putting him away where he could sit and stew. 
| Quote: | | Enough of my pathetic rambles! I´ll leave you for now with another of my favourite quotes: 'This was the Noontide of the Blessed Realm, the fullness of its glory and its bliss, long in tale of years, but in memory too brief'. Magnificent! |
Not pathetic at all - they're very good observations. Your quote there about it being the Noontide is a good one. It always made me wonder how these things could go on at a time that was supposed to be the most blissful and peaceful years ever. I wonder if the Shadow was brought to Valinor when the Elves came from Middle-earth or when Morgoth was brought there and imprisoned. Or maybe it was always there, since Morgoth had polluted Arda with his power, and the Valar just kept Valinor away from its effect longer than the outside lands, which were unprotected. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| sindohte wrote: | | Well I took the oppposite view of Miriel. I saw her as making the ultimate sacrifice, in that she had given all of her love, strength, and even some of her soul to Feanor before birth. As a result of this transfer, she was little more than an empty shell after his birth and it made sense that she would just lay down and go to the halls of Mandos. And because of her great gift to her son, it made him the mighty Elf that he was because he was imbued not only with his own spirit, yet also with that of his mother. So I don't think she left her child arbitrarily, but because she had no other choice. |
That is an excellent insight. I hadn't thought of it that way. Also, as I read this a thought struck me - that Feanor's parents didn't exactly make wise decisions either, so maybe he inherited his dumbassedness from them. He was a victim of genetics.
| Quote: | | Well sort of sound like an inherent character flaw to me, in that the Noldor loved knowledge, forbidden or hidden knowledge, to the extent that it led to a boatload of trouble. The Vanyar could be considered wise in that they knew trouble when they saw it. As for the Teleri, their apparent weakness in the eyes of Melkor turned out to be an unexpected strength, because he ignored them. As for the Noldor, the fact that they thought they could play with the devil and not get burned is an example of their arrogance. And this pride will lead to their downfall. |
Now that was really insightful. You instinctively picked up on what I had to read about in Letters to understand. The Noldor's want of knowledge was their downfall. A lot of people think that makes them the bad guys, but that's because people seem to think that being an Elf means that you're just inherently good and not capable of doing dumbass things. They weren't always 'good' and Tolkien specifically says that - that Elves were just as capable of making mistakes and doing crappy things as Mortals were.
I think what the difference was with Elves is that they had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes over their long lives - an opportunity that Mortals don't have. By the time Mortals figure things out, then it's about time for them to die. The Elves are wise by the Third Age because they've lived through two 'Falls' of their own and they know better. You don't see any councils of 'the wise' in the First Age like there were in the Third Age, because none of them had lived or experienced enough yet to be wise. That's what we're seeing here in the Silmarillion - the Elves making the mistakes that will make them wise in later years. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Saralitazie wrote: | | My take on the Noldor is that they're like the larger portion of humanity: starting out by looking for all that's beautiful and right, and somewhere on the way, moving on to seeking for things that aren't necessarily good. I once heard someone call it the pride cycle - first, being humble and seeking good; looking a little on the "bad" side; being lifted up in the pride of their hearts; getting a butt-kicking; going back to the humble bit - it just keeps going. |
Yet another insightful observation. Maybe Galadriel's refusal of the Ring brought that pride cycle to an end. She was tempted into taking the Ring by the very trait that had brought the Noldor to ruin twice before, but she resisted it. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | ‘Mandos was silent’
How incredibly foreboding, just those three words. Whenever Mandos doesn’t speak - for some reason or another - terrible things always happen. For Mandos only spoke at the bidding of Manwe, since he could see the future. But that’s all Tolkien gives us - like ‘Call me Ishmael’ or Jesus wept.’ Those powerful little phrases that are so simple, yet tie in the rest of the story. Literary genius. |
I forgot to comment on this earlier, but that is a good point. Very foreboding statement in light of what comes later. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Ahem... Anna, while you confuse the ever-living bejeebers out of me |
That's like shooting fish in a pond.... 
| Quote: | But Feanor had a good side  He got married and had babies... he had to have been nice at SOME point. |
I'm sorry, BB dear, but you'll have to give me a better case than that. Hells Bells, my first husband got married and had babies and he's the biggest bastard on god's green earth. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | BittenBuggy wrote: | | Ahem... Anna, while you confuse the ever-living bejeebers out of me |
That's like shooting fish in a pond.... |
Somehow I dont think that was meant in a nice way 
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | Quote: | | But Feanor had a good side He got married and had babies... he had to have been nice at SOME point. |
I'm sorry, BB dear, but you'll have to give me a better case than that. Hells Bells, my first husband got married and had babies and he's the biggest bastard on god's green earth. |
Ahem..yes. I was going to comment on this too - it is possible to get married, have kids, and be and utter *censored for extremely unappropriate language * I've known several in my short lifetime. It's quite sad....
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"Society does not want free men. They torment freedom, democracy, anything you want. But they do not want free men. Society wants conditioned men; men who march in step." - Henri Charriere
-Litzy the Lush |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Feanor shows 'feeling' of sort beneath his insanity (which is really what it was): |
You're absolutely right on that one. When it discusses the Battle Under the Stars, Feanor is said to be fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Even Feanor's own son tells him 'Fell and fey you have become.'
| Quote: | 'That ship I destroyed first,' said Feanor (hiding his own dismay.)"
See see? |
Yep, that is a sign of some emotion there. I'll give you that one. Maybe if he wasn't crazy as a loon by then he'd have felt a little more than dismayed at burning his own son alive.
I'll give you an 'A' for effort though.
I saw something about Feanor burning his son once and now I can't remember if it was in a fan fiction story or something that Tolkien wrote. But it speculated that maybe Feanor's actions were intentional and that he burned this first ship knowing his son was on there because he was pissed that his son was going to desert him and go back to Nerdanel. Have you seen anything like that, BB? |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Andreth wrote: | | BittenBuggy wrote: | | Ahem... Anna, while you confuse the ever-living bejeebers out of me |
That's like shooting fish in a pond.... |
Somehow I dont think that was meant in a nice way |
Only teasing you, BB babe. I would never say anything mean to our BB. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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'A' for effort! Thats good enough for me
And I haven't seen a fic like that, but the like 'hiding his own dismay' says pretty clearly to me that it was an accident. Would be a facinating piece of fiction to read though.
And in regards to the twins, they were mommy's babies, my heart just breaks for her when Feanor takes them away.
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Saralitazie wrote: | | Maybe when I get older and wiser and discover how to better express myself |
Or you could be like me and just ramble incessantly, and play the odds that somewhere in there you'll say something that makes sense. It's like the monkey with a typewriter theory... |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Oh shush you old hag, you know you dont ramble.
Actually, perhaps you do, but its ok, it educates the rest of us.
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Andreth,
I think I have read something like that. I believe the name of that fic is Fathers's Wish. It is a Celeborn/Galadriel fic but in the first few chapters Feanor is a main character and has far reaching influence after his death. The characters in this story are very realistic. As good as Boz's Panic stories are for detail, this one is for character development and insight
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=869916
By WatcherChild
The author is worth buying hardback and is quite insightful into Feanor's character. Definitely an interesting look at his drives, inspiration and ruthlessness. It raises some interesting points about him. Was he crazy or just a cunning ruthless bastard, as kings have to be sometimes? Was he so ruthless that most of us can't imagine that kind of drive and would hope that someone was crazy or unstable or whatever before they would go as far as he did to achieve his goals? Like Manwe not being able to see the Evil in Melkor because he had no evil in him and couldn't comprehend it. Until I read this story, I thought Feanor was runover dog crazy, but Father's Wish shines a different light on the Firey One. And insanity would be just too easy of an explanation.
I can't stress enough how good this story is. Great for Silmfans. She is in my top 5 best Silmfic authors.
Warning: it is a pretty long WIP that isn't updated that often.
But more on Feanor: Yes he was described as fell and fey but he stayed that way for several years as they marched up the coast of Aman and then sailed over. Awfully long time to not do something stupid and get everybody killed that crazy people are often want to do. Though as he got closer to his goal, I think he did go over the edge or like Alexander, started believing his own press and thought he was invincible. (But so did Fingolfin, though it was desparation that drove him to do something REALLY STUPID and take on a GOD!!!)
There is a lot of calculations in his actions, everything he did had the affect of bonding those around him, burning thier bridges as it were (sorry about the pun but it fits). I have to give credit to Watcherchild for some of this but her insights make alot of sense.
Feanor riminds me of Stalin. I may be giving Stalin too much credit but what started as good intentions ended in the death of hundreds of millions and the debacle of a once great nation. And there were rumors that Stalin was indeed quite mad at the end of his life.
Having said all that, I'm with Andreth that I like Feanor almost as little as Turin. but Turin was just a hard headed, self centered insensitive arrogant unbeatable jackass. Feanor atleast had talent. I dislike Feanor but I really...really... hate Turin
Inglor
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