[Moralanqua]

Oh! Another livewire debate topic!

We have had the thread on 'how to artfully review' but now i think we should get into the old classic - when is it time to be truthful or to lie yer arse off?

Here is an example:

A fic was found on FF.net. It was written by a squealy teenybopper and was full of constructional errors (spelling, grammar etc) as well as the most silly and cliched of plots (SUE!). This added to the fact that her canon was nowhere to be found (She gave Legolas a new daddy cause she had no idea who Thranduil was) induced at least 5 negative reviews.

In fairness, 4/5 were constructive and quite gentle. The 6th review was a well known author. They came in and actually encouraged the teenybopper to not listen to the constructive reviews. Told teenybopper to just carry on as she wanted to.

This is one side of the debate. Do what you want and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

On the other hand, there are the folk like me. I wanted to slap the 6th reviewer upside their dumbass head. Why do we have to put up with crapfic? Why cant we just be honest and tell someone the truth? I hate conforming to the majority on this type of thing. Im all for being nice and encouraging but not to the detriment of another writers abilities.

I can be quite harsh as a reviewer but 99% time I back it up with offers to help and beta read. I think this shows im not a flamer - just a fed up reader who wants to help without being arrogant and patronising.


So - where do you stand? Do you live and let live? Do you tell it like it is? Maybe you lie, clap and cheer for crapfic but diss it in private?

[BittenBuggy]

Nah, if I review a fic, I'll be honest but inject it with a bit of humour so that the author doesn't feel like I'm attacking them. Also, along with critisism I will try to find at least one good thing about their writing... And if I can't do that, I'll share one of my own weaknesses when writing. It makes them feel reassured that nobody is perfect (execpt mabye Andreth - dammit) while not giving them 'false hope' for how good their writing is currently.

*Shrug* I try to be nice and fair, but I rarely gush over fics unless they truly deserve it.

[AranelMinyatur]

Wow...techy subject! I think it's just as wrong to overly encourage a writer as it is to harshly discourage them. There has to be a balance where you can give constructive criticism as well as encouragement. Like this person you were talking about on the other site....do you think that after gently steering her toward actually reading a book written by Tolkien , she may actually write good fiction? Is there potential or will that person continue to crank out dimestore drivel? If it's just garbage, then they need to know and be coached on what would help (like the 4 good but negative reviewers). I'm with you about slapping that 6th person because it's not helping the author at all. You wouldn't get that from a real life publishing company! It's like a mother coddling the horrid acting child instead of busting their butt! You raise a pampered brat that no one likes.

You have to remember, though, a person will dwell on the harsh word and may not even notice the offer of help. Maybe try the offer first and then point out what was wrong?

Just speaking for myself, if I start into a story and it's just awful, I will back out of it and go in search of something better. If I enjoy it, then I let the author know by posting a review. I am starting to point out silly errors that I see when reading (date problems, type-ohs, etc.) because they drive me crazy! I just can't bring myself to read awful stories....its just a waste of time, in my mind. I guess I could stop reading, click review and let them know that I couldn't finish their story because (fill in the reason), if I thought it might help them(?). You think??

Good topic, Mora!

[Viv]

In reviews, I try to be as gentle as possible, but I think it's important to let people know not just what I liked, but also what I didn't like. I believe that dissing in private (whether on chat, in my brain, or using that OSA rating thingy), is horribly rude. (I do it sometimes, and almost always feel guilty.)

For instance, I've seen stories on this archive that have one or two stars (ratings), but 3 glowing reviews. Why were none of the raters brave enough to say why they disliked the story? A lot of authors are capable and willing to rewrite, polish, fix ... we just have to tell them what needs work.

Now, the authors who consider everything non-squealy a flame... well, I don't understand them, and I'm frankly terrified of them. They are the reason I don't review every single story I read.

[SpaceWeavil]

Speaking as someone who probably writes more than she reads fan fic, I would rather hear the truth about my stories than nothing at all, because I’m fairly new to LOTR fan fic and I want to improve. I think I have already just from reading comments either on stories or reading people’s opinions here. Certainly, compared to some of my first attempts, I think I’m getting better. Those first stories are never going on any archive ever because the very thought of them makes me cringe.

If people did review a story even if they couldn’t finish it, to say why they had a problem with it, would be helpful as well. I have noticed that ‘hit counter’ thing on the stories and as far as I can tell, people are looking at my stuff, but I have a modest amount of reviews so far, so are those people just not wanting to review, or are they turned off after the first paragraph? If you know what I mean.

Jess

[Hathor]

I go hunting Sues on various... well... nasty LJ groups. That's what they exist for - to take the piss of bad fanfiction. It's not meant to be constructive.

With all that in mind, I have a rule. Everytime I post a Sue, I always go to the author and I leave a review. This review isn't necessarily particularly harsh - although it has been taken as so before - and I always find the positive, such as "Well, it's an original idea, albeit not entirely suited to the LOTR fandom" or occasionally "The writing style is very flowing and beautiful; the characters sound a little wooden, however..."

Spoonful of sugar and all that, right?

I make no pretensions towards being a particularly fantastic writer. I also think it's brilliant that people actualy do write and use their brain. (Mostly!) I also think that if you put something into the public domain, you're asking for that kind of appraisal. I once got a particularly harsh review from gatereview.net, which made me whine at them at the time. "I'm 14! I'm trying my best! YOU'RE SO MEAN!" This got me nowhere, and I suddenly twigged that perhaps if I listened to their advice I might be a little better. Hence the fact I now meticulously check my characterisations and paragraphing, amongst other things.

In conclusion: be honest. Say what's wrong if there's something that's particularly glaring. Bitching over the odd grammatical error is just nasty - consistent errors need to be picked out. Just always try and make a good point here and there. For a lot of authors, they just regard as being "U BIG MEANY!" but who knows, maybe it'll make a difference, right?

Phew, that was long.

[Viv]

[Hathor]

[SpaceWeavil]

I’ve given orders to my long-time idea-bouncing friend that if I ever write anything that could vaguely be classed as a Sue, she is to take me out and shoot me. It would be the kindest thing.

It’s a thing that terrifies me, having ready some pretty dire ones in the past, that any OFC of mines could turn out that way. Worries me with spouses etc. that weren’t really described in canon, like so far I have managed to avoid bringing Celebrian into anything as I would be very wary of turning her into a Mary Sue.

Jess

[BittenBuggy]

I have a profound respect for people who can write believable OFCs. The female characters Tolkien gives already come complete with faults. (With the exception of perhaps Arwen and Luthien)

-Miriel: selfish, weak
-Indis: shallow
-Aredhel: bratty/spoiled/bad listener
-Galadriel: power hungery
-Nerdanel: not very pretty/tendancy for bad taste in elves

Those are the easy ones, its those blasted ones where you actually have to use imagination!

[Losille]

As I writer, I would hope that people would be honest with my fic... but sometimes I am not so sure it is like that in reviews. When I review, I always find myself trying to be upbeat and optimistic, even though the writing isn't necessarily what we would call 'good'.

I am guilty of being one who tells a writer who is a squealing fangirl and also writes horribly that they have good ideas. Recently, I have had such conversations with a writer that was torn to shreds on here (which in most cases I agree where she was torn to shreds) but I never said that she was a good writer. We have talked since then, and still do. I have looked at one of her stories as a beta... and it took me four hours just to get through 1000 words of her first chapter.

There is no easy way to say, "I'm sorry, you just have no future in writing."

She is not a very good writer... some people do not have the talent... and she may very well be one of them. Okay, she is one fo them... All I told her was that I though the plot line had possibilities... but she needed to develop it more and shy away from Suefics. And I gave her many suggestions on how she could improve on the story line. I do not know if she has taken these things to heart.

But then it becomes more of a job, rather than fun, as most of us would agree that writing fanfic is a type of therapy for us. If the giggling fangirl (or boy) finds it a therapy for her to write, then I think s/he should write as much as they want. It is wrong to take away anyone's enjoyment of the fandom, isn't it?

I believe that these people need guidance and maybe they can develop a craft for writing, though I think that half of all writing comes from talent and many fangirls do not have it. And they should not post on such sites as this unless they expect to be reviewed fairly.

To sum up my rant... reviews should be honest, but please do not batter people out of writing. Sometimes it is all they have to escape, even though they are not very good.

Puts away her soapbox....

Thanks for listening,

Losille

[Saralitazie]

[Ellbee]

For myself, I love constructive reviews, and I would love to hear from readers what does and doesn’t work for them (though I almost never do.) I’m more hesitant to review that way, for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I don’t really know how a writer will take it. Yes, sometimes they want to improve their writing, and are glad for advice, but a great number, especially on ff.net, don’t have any interest in improving, and anything remotely negative will be taken as a flame. Sometimes they just want to have fun. A story was recommended to me awhile back as a great story that I would just love to pieces, and it had tons of really glowing reviews, from people I really admire as writers and reviewers. I hated it. I thought the characterization was sloppy and the scenario was laughable. But the author and her readers were having a great time. Why would I want to jump in there and step all over their fun? And for another thing, if a story has a lot of problems, I don’t finish it. I don’t feel subjected to badfic, because when it’s obvious that a story’s gonna suck, I just hit the back button.

I have a lot of respect for those writers who need improvement who can manage to take advice with good grace, and, as I said, I like it for my own stories. But I do think the writer has the ultimate say, and if she (or he) wants to disregard a reviewer's opinions, that’s her right. For instance, I got a couple of reviews, from readers I respect, on Whispers that said I should have left the ending open, and not given away who the fic was about. I thought about it, but decided that I didn’t want to leave it open. If I did, then most readers would assume, wrongly, that it was about a different character, and that’s not what I was trying to do with the story. So in the end, I’m all for concrit, but I don’t want reviewers to be offended if their advice is not taken.

-Ell

[Viv]

[Anna]

Hmm...this is a tricky subject...

I am a person who is brutally honest, but pretty nice. If someone asks me (in person) to be completely honest about something, then I am. Even if it means hurting that person´s feelings. I don´t want to hurt anybody, but sometimes it is called for. Mind you, I always give people a fair warning before I become all bitchy.

I don´t always review fics. Why? One reason is b/c I don´t like leaving a review until I´ve read at least two chapters if it´s a WIP-fic. Well, I can leave a review after one chapter in the lines of: 'Good idea, interesting beginning, keep up the good work', but seldom anything else. Sometimes I read a fic and have lots to say (good and/or bad), but wait until later to review when I have more time.
And sometimes I read fics so absolutely horrible that I simply want to smack the author over the head and scream a lot of foul words in her/his ears! Thankfully, this doesn´t happen very often here.
However, when I feel like this I normally wait a while before reviewing so that I might cool of a bit. Nobody is helped by recieving a lot of foul language.

When I review I try to be nice and polite. Even if I don´t like the fic, I try to find at least one good thing about it. I try to be very careful about what I write b/c the written word is so much stronger than the spoken, I think. If I´m face to face with a person I can be more direct in my manner, since he/she will be able to see my expressions, hear the tone of my voice and so on. If there´s a misunderstanding I can correct it right away so that noone has to ponder it for god knows how long! This is difficult in a forum. Sometimes a wellmeant joke is taken badly and sometimes an honest advice is considered a flame.

I´ve realize I´ve become less and less tolerant, though. I tend to stop reading after only a few paragraphs if I find too many grammar mistakes, spelling errors or just plain awful writing. If I can´t even finish the first chapter, then I don´t leave a review. I feel it´s a waste of my rather limited time.

However, I´m always honest (though sometimes you have to read between the lines a bit)! When I gush over a fic and become all fangirly I really mean it! Likewise, if I should ever seriously flame anyone I promise I will be completely honest while shredding him/her to pieces. Naaah, I´m a nice girl!

Oh, and I agree with whoever brought up the whole 'she-elf-thingy'! Enough with that! I simply can´t stand it!

There...I´m calm now..