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Anna
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 548
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anna - VD is so... bulky. |
I agree... Vin Diesel is nothing compared to Elrond. Nothing, I say...  |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | Anna - VD is so... bulky.  |
No, BB - VD is something you take antibiotics for. If you're lucky.
| Anna wrote: | | I agree... Vin Diesel is nothing compared to Elrond. Nothing, I say... |
BB, shame on you for sharing your crack pipe with Anna. 
It would be a hard choice between Riddick and Elrond, but yes, Sind - Riddick would have definitely kicked butt. Like Conan the barbarian in Middle-earth. 
And yes, girls, you are correct, he is bulky. *sigh* Very bulky. I likes 'em that way. I have no likings for slender girlie men. Sorry. stereotype.) It's all psychological - my daddy was a Golden Gloves boxer in his youth and women tend to look for traits of their father in the men they choose. *looks around guiltily* Uhhh, like Nerdanel and Mahtan. See, I'm still on topic! |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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To Anna -  You're so cool
To Andreth - Is that really true? The whole daddy-in-hubby thing? Wow, huh. Interesting. Now I'm all paranoid
Is the same thing true for men and their mothers?
(I'm on topic - this is educational!)
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sindohte wrote: | | The Noldo and their love for technology and knowledge got me to thinking about the Industrial Revolution and the impact it had upon the English people and the rest of the world. |
Okay, look away, BB, because this is one of those long posts that only Sind will appreciate.
You're right again about the paralells here. Tolkien had an intense dislike for machinery and the effects it had on the world. Here's part of a letter he wrote to his son in 1944 -
"There is the tragedy and despair of all machinery laid bare. Unlike art which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind, it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World; and that cannot really be done with any real satisfaction. Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and worse labour. And in addition to this fundamental disablity of a creature, is added the Fall, which makes our devices not only fail of their desire, but turn to new and horrible evil. So we come inevitably to Daedelus and Icarus, and the Giant Bomber. It is not an advance in wisdom! This terrible truth, glimpsed long ago by Sam Butler, sticks out so plainly and is so horrifyingly exhibited in our time, with its even worse menace for the future, that it seems almost a world wide mental disease that only a tiny minority perceive it. Even if people have ever heard of the legends (which is getting rarer) they have no inkling of their portent. How could a maker of motorbikes name his product Ixion cycles? Ixion, who was bound for ever in hell on a perpetually revolving wheel! Well, I have got over 2 thousand words onto this little flimsy airletter; and I will forgive the Mordor-gadgets some of their sins, if they will bring it quickly to you."
Even back then he was calling machines Mordor-gadgets. Then ten years later in another letter to a bookshop owner, Tolkien elucidates on how this applies to the Noldor.
"The particular branch of the High Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always on the side of 'science and technology', as we should call it.... The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves - an 'allegory' if you like, of love of machinery and technical devices - is also symbolised by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.
I should regard them as no more wicked or foolish (but in much the same peril) as Catholics engaging in certain kinds of physical research (e.g. those producing, if only as by-products, poisonous gases and explosives): things not necessarily evil, but which, things being as they are, and the nature and motives of the economic masters who provide all the means for their work being as they are, are pretty certain to serve evil ends. For which they will not necessary be to blame, even if aware of them."
So like you said - the Noldor aren't evil or horrible. They have a weakness that is exploited to evil ends. It doesn't make them bad, that's just their role in the story and their mistakes are what further the plot line and keep it going. Would be a pretty boring story without them. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | To Andreth - Is that really true? The whole daddy-in-hubby thing? Wow, huh. Interesting. Now I'm all paranoid
Is the same thing true for men and their mothers?
(I'm on topic - this is educational!) |
Yep, it's true. Children are more influenced by the opposite-sex parent - daughters bond more strongly to their fathers and sons bond more strongly to their mothers. I haven't read anything on it since college psychology though - I don't remember the exact mechanics of it.  Maybe when Sind gets back online she can give us a more professional opinion of it.
So most men look for women who remind them of mommy dear (which isn't very flattering, in my opinion, when I think of my ex and current mother-in-laws) and women look for men who remind them of daddy. Which isn't good for us women when our father's are screwed up, because that can lead to codependent relationships. I wrote a paper in college about how women with absentee fathers, whether they're just not involved or literally not there, tend to be more promiscuous than women who have a stable father figure. It's not an absolute by any means, but it's still a tendency.
Frightening how much effect our parents have on us as adults, isn't it?  |
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Anna
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 548
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yep, it's true. Children are more influenced by the opposite-sex parent - daughters bond more strongly to their fathers and sons bond more strongly to their mothers. I haven't read anything on it since college psychology though - I don't remember the exact mechanics of it. Maybe when Sind gets back online she can give us a more professional opinion of it.
So most men look for women who remind them of mommy dear (which isn't very flattering, in my opinion, when I think of my ex and current mother-in-laws) and women look for men who remind them of daddy. Which isn't good for us women when our father's are screwed up, because that can lead to codependent relationships. I wrote a paper in college about how women with absentee fathers, whether they're just not involved or literally not there, tend to be more promiscuous than women who have a stable father figure. It's not an absolute by any means, but it's still a tendency.
Frightening how much effect our parents have on us as adults, isn't it? |
Well, my father is very tall, slender and quite handsome, to tell you the truth. So is my hubby... 
Fortunately, they are both very nice men.
To BB - back to you and cheers!  |
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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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BB - sorry about that, I just couldn't resist the jibe I'm not really serious, you know :hug:
Sind - love the parallel. That makes so much sense... sheds a wee bit more light on the Noldor, too Thanks for sharing!
Whenever you're ready for the next chapter, I have the summary ready..did it this morning. *cough*
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"Society does not want free men. They torment freedom, democracy, anything you want. But they do not want free men. Society wants conditioned men; men who march in step." - Henri Charriere
-Litzy the Lush  |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm late. Feel free to ignore this.
‘In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.’
I wonder what would have happened to Middle Earth if the Noldor had not returned? Doriath might have remainded safe behind the Girdle of Melian, at least for a while. The rest of the place would have been over-run by Melkor's minions, though. In the end, Doriath likely would have fallen, too. Melain, for all of her power, is only one of the Maiar. Melkor was a Vala.
The Valar seemed more than content to remain in the paradise of Valinor, leaving the rest of Middle Earth to its fate.
If not for the rebellion of the Noldor and their return to Middle Earth, the fate of the elves left in ME and all of the humans would have been, to say the least, bleak.
The rebellion was not 'good', but it seems to have been necessary.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Anna
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 548
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The rebellion was not 'good', but it seems to have been necessary. |
Sometimes rebellion is called for. You´re absolutely right, Haleth. Besides, not everyone could be nice, obediant and 'perfect' little Vanyar-elves... |
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Haleth hits on one of my bigger Valarian peeves. The bums (Valar) were just going to sit back an let Melkor/Morgoth/Mrrobato take over the place. If I had been Avari/Nandor/Teleri/Human/Dwarven/Entish/rational being, I'd be pretty cheesed that they just went behind their Fence of mountains and ocean and forgot their duty as protectors of ME. Which brings up another question, were they inhabitants or protectors.
We have a term in forestry for what the Valar did, its called absentee owners. Properties that have absentee owners are havens for poachers and folks who like to dump refridgerators, old magazines, rubbish, furniture. Arsonists also like them.
Besides Ulmo, did any of the Valar ever trouble to check on the rest of ME or were they content to just sit behind the Pelori and jack off.
Or maybe we can have this debate later when it is OnT
Inglor
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