[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor will officially begin on Monday 7/12.

Saralitazie will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Saralitazie]

That would be today, wouldn't it? (Scuse me, but I just woke up a bit ago..around 11:30 ish )

Ok. Summary time then:

Feanor makes the Silmarils; all filled with wonder and go 'aaawww'. Feanor is totally addicted to them.

Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air lay locked within them.

Melkor lusted after them and sought eagerly to destroy Feanor and the friendship between the Valar and the Elves, AND to get the Silmarils.

Melkor lies to the Eldar about the Valar's silence concerning the coming of the Secondborn: the peace of Valinor poisoned.

Noldor become proud; Melkor spreads discord among Sons of Finwe.

Noldor begin making weapons, bannars, house devices, etc., and wearing the latter two abroad.

Feanor openly rebels against the Valar and draws his sword against Fingolfin; summoned by Valar and banished from Tirion for 12 years - his sons and Finwe go with him.

Tulkas seeks for Melkor in vain; the light of the Trees seems dimmed.

Melkor goes to Feanor at Formenos, feigning friendship and etc., but mistakes in his words: Feanor perceives his lust for the Silmarils and tells him to get his ass out of there - whoops, I mean tells him to go, quite angrily.

Finwe sends messengers to the Valar of Melkor's presense at Formenos, but Melkor escapse the Valar and departs Valinor - "Thus Melkor departed from Valinor, and for a while the Two Trees shone again unshadowed, and the land was filled with light. But the Valar sought in vain for tidings of their enemy; and as a cloud far off that looms ever higher, borne upon a slow cold wind, a doubt now marred the joy of all the dwellers in Aman, dreading they knew not what evil that yet might come."

And that do be the summary

[Saralitazie]

A couple of things I found interesting about this chapter were that Mandos actually spoke for once; and these two bits: "Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life."

I'm really curious to know what the Silmarils were made of, but oh well. The part that caught me was that the "house of it's inner fire" thing. Any comments? It's said that the outer body is a reflection of the inner spirit for the Elves, so it sounds like it was the same with the Silmarils, to me.

"Then Fingolfin said: 'I will release my brother.' But Fëanor spoke no word in answer, standing silent before the Valar. Then he turned and left the council, and departed from Valmar."

Just further proof that Feanor really needed anger management Or..he had a big stick up his ass - or both. For Fingolfin to do that, he either had to be really clear headed, or wanted more PR..

Just to piss Beebs off, I'm going to go with more PR

Discuss!

[BittenBuggy]

[Saralitazie]

I really should finish reading Unfinished Tales and get my hands on the Book of Lost Tales... Thanks, BB. Wish it said that in the Silm, but nooo...it just says that it won't be known until the end of the earth of some such rot like that. Well, honestly.

[Anna]

[BittenBuggy]

It is very important to realize that the Valar did not 'lord' over the Eldar. They were their teachers and their mentors, but not their kings. They had their own kings (Ingwe, Elwe/Olwe, Finwe)

They brought them to Aman in the first place to protect them from the evil brewing in Middle Earth because of Melkor and his lovely little creations. They had no wish to control every aspect of their lives. So if the Elves decided they wanted to leave, they wouldn't restrain them, only advise.

Which is why Feanor and company made it out of Aman in the first place.

[Andreth]

BB's right - there's a section in Morgoth's Ring that talks about how it might seem to us that the Valar were selfish or arrogant in some of their actions, but that we have to remember that we don't know the whole story because none of this is told from the Valar's point of view - it's all second and third hand info. And also by the time the lives of Elves and Mortals are getting started on Arda, the time of the Valar is starting to wear down. They've been around for a very long time by then and have already played their part in things, so to speak, and now it's time to sit back and let Elves have their turn with things. To me, it seems kind of like what the Elves did for Mortals in the Third Age when the Time of Men arrived. It was time for the Elves to pass on the torch, so to speak.

But back to the chapter - Sara you gave an excellent presentation.

Anna, I think you're right about Feanor's talents. They were so strong that it just overshadowed everything else. Kind of like with Albert Einstein being highly intelligent and being able to devise something like the theory of relativity, but being unable to cope with some of the simpler aspects of life. And before Aman was separated from the physical world later in the Second Age, the Elves and others didn't have to have permission to leave. I think they just would have needed permission to enter.

Okay, the majority of the chapter is filled with Feanor's anger control problems, but at the first of the chapter Feanor actually did a good thing, although I don't know what his motivations were - he made the Silmarils and saved the Light of the Two Trees. But the goodness of that would depend on his motivations, wouldn't it? If he made them because he was at full height of his power and just got it in his mind to make the Silmarils, then he basically set things in motion that led to the death of the Trees - but if he created them because he had a foreshadowing of doom, then he saved the Light of the Trees from total destruction. Or the foreshadowing of doom could have been for what would happen if he made the Silmarils. Yet another one of those things that just gets confusing if you think about it too much.

Chapter goes on to show how Melkor planted the seeds of suspicion in the Noldor and played upon their restlessness in Aman to tempt them with thoughts of ruling the lands in the East. "Bitterly did the Noldor atone for the folly of their open ears in the days that followed after." That one line sums it up nicely. Feanor fell for it hook, line and sinker, and by the time it came to light that Melkor was behind it all the "Silmarils held his heart in thrall" and he was too far gone to realize that he'd been played.

I enjoyed the part where Mandos essentially tells Feanor to 'check yo self' and for Feanor to remember who and what he is before having the audacity to throw insults at the Valar. Although Mandos's words fell on deaf ears.

Fingolfin was the one who interested me most in this chapter. He knew what Feanor was doing was wrong and tried to get Finwe to stop him, because at that point Finwe was probably the only one Feanor would even listen to. Then Fingolfin is humiliated, then chased down and has his life threatened, walks away from Feanor's threats and accusations, and after all that is still able to forgive his brother.

And Finwe was the one who irritated me most in this chapter, even more than Feanor. Finwe said nothing in support of Fingolfin when he asked for his help, and then left to go with Feanor in his banishment for threatening to kill Fingolfin. Really makes me wonder what kind of father Finwe was to Fingolfin and Finarfin, and if he didn't spend all his time pampering Feanor. Maybe if he'd stopped babying Feanor so much because he lost his mother and been a more guiding father, Feanor wouldn't have made so many mistakes.

[BittenBuggy]

Anna/Andreth, you make a good point regarding the family structure of Finwe and his sons. He does give us the impression that Fingolfin and Finarfin (undoubtably the better sons) play second fiddle to Feanor. Finwe probably feels some measure of guilt for Miriel's death and then marrying Indis and he tries to balance it out with over-spoiling his oldest.

You have to admire Fingolfin in this chapter - nobody groan, I won't gush, promise - for his ability to just walk away. He had to be angry and hurt but instead of lashing back out in defense of himself, he bows to Finwe and 'goes to seek out his brother Finarfin.' You get the impression (later) that Fingolfin always had the majority of the Noldor behind him and not Feanor, so he very well could have said something and nobody would have scoffed. But no, he was a bigger elfie than that.

Ok, I gushed a little, so shoot me.

[Saralitazie]

Very excellent insights, all. *considers shooting Beebs, but decides against it* Nah, I agree with ya.

[BittenBuggy]

I'm still all in shivers over Anna saying I was right.

[inglor]

Fingolfin was very... Finarfinish, walking away like that. Now BB you have to take back all those nasty things you said about Finarfin.

I can't ad much of substance so I will add something other than substance.

I have not read the Sil in a while but Feanor drawing on fingolfin is one thing that is burned into my mind. The whole sword creation thing is big too because there is no other purpose for a sword than to kill another being. It's like a handgun, yeah you can hunt with it and kill food if there is nothing else around but that is not the reason for its design. And why would they need swords in Valinor, begining of an arms race is what it could have been. Which brings me to something I've pondered, what do you all think would have become of all Feanor's gusto had Melkor not nicked the Silmarils and killed his father. Would he have still gone to ME or would he have started a real civil war in Valinor and REALLY pissed everyone off.

Inglor

[BittenBuggy]

[Saralitazie]

Not sure if I agree with you or not... Pacifist, definitely..... *ponders* Ah, what the heck, he can be a ponce.

As much as I want to kick Feanor a good one in the ass sometimes, ya gotta admit that he had balls..guts..*cough* But not a great deal of patience