[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter Of the Darkening of Valinor will officially begin on Monday 7/19.

Yours truly, will be leading off discussion of this chapter. However, I am feverishly working to make last minute edits to my dissertation, so it will not be until tomorrow night until I get to post the summary and my thoughts.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Saralitazie]

*pokes Sind*

*twiddles thumbs*

[sindohte]

Sorry folks, it is 10 pm-ish my time and I just got in from work. Give me a bit to settle in and I'll throw up my summary and thoughts for this chapter.

[sindohte]

Here I am folks. Turns out that I fell asleep with my laptop on my chest last night so I didn't get my summary posted I really do like that emoticon for some perverse reason

So without further ado, here we go with the next chapter -

At the conclusion of the last chapter, Melkor left Valinor and Orome and Tulkas gave chase. It was thought he was headed up North to his old stomping grounds, but instead he went South and hid out by using his form shifting abilities. Melkor then ends up in Avathar, which is where Ungoliant lived.

Ungoliant had a past history of working for Melkor, but she left his service and went off on her on. When Melkor showed up on her doorstep, he took on the appearance that he had used as the dark Lord of Utumno and the two of them started thinking about doing dirty deeds. He makes Ungoliant an offer she is unable to refuse - that if she did as he asked and she was still hungry, he would give her whatever she wanted to eat.

Unable to say no to such a tasty offer, Ungoliant and Melkor set up for Valinor in a cloak of darkness made by Ungoliant. When they arrive on the outskirts of Valinor, there is a large festival going on where the Valar, Vanyar, Noldor, and Maiar were in attendance. The Teleri Elves stayed at home. Even Feanor comes to the festival and he makes peace with Fingolfin. Unfortunately for Fingolfin, he makes a promise to stand by his brother, that he will later regret.

While the festival is going on, the rest of Valinor is left unguarded. Melkor and Ungoliant arrive and go straight for the Two Trees. Melkor uses his spear to destroys Teleperion and Laurelin. As the Trees are bleeding out their sap on to the ground, Ungoliant sucks it up and then goes to each Tree and makes sure they are drained of all their life's blood. Teleperion and Laurelin wither and die. Ungoliant then drinks the Wells of Varda dry.

Darkness falls upon Valinor and an complete and utter silence falls. Manwe is the only one able to see through this Darkness and sees that it is Melkor making a retreat. A chase ensues, but the cloud of darkness woven by Ungoliant conceals him and he is not found.

[sindohte]

Okay time for my thoughts -

1. Tolkien nicely set things up for how Feanor's Silmarils will become of vital importance.

2. I wonder what Ungoliant looked like in her "true" form, if creatures such as her can truly be considered to have a true form. Given how she looked in the movie version of ROTK, I could imagine her as having a terrible hag-like human shape. And that if Varda and Manwe could be considered the golden couple, Ungoliant and Melkor would be the dark couple.

3. The sloppiness of the Valar in defending their borders continues to amaze me. It is as if they have no concept of danger or the potential for destruction that someone like Melkor could do to their lands.

4. To go all Jungian on you folks for a minute, the use of a spider illustrates both the generative and destructive aspects of the feminine. On the one hand you have Ungoliant spinning her web of darkness. And then instead of giving life, she literally sucks it out of her victims and takes it into herself. Yet even though she takes lives, she then creates a cycle where she uses the essence of her victims to continue her life and quest to quench her hunger.

5. Nice foreshadowing as to the upcoming Oath of Feanor by laying the seeds for tragedy with the reconcillation and oath by Fingolfin. Did Tolkien ever give a name to Fingolfin's oath to Feanor?

6. It sounds like Ungoliant was a creature that sprang up apart from the music of Iluvatar. Is this an accurate assumption? Or is there more information as to her origins?

[Saralitazie]

[BittenBuggy]

First, Sara, Melkor couldn't 'create' he could only corrupt. My views on Spider-lady have always been that she was a normal creature once, but got exposed to some of Melkor's toxic evil waste stuff and it mutated her into something horrible - what we now call Ungoliant I remember somewhere that it said the 'land was poisoned' and that could have spread down to the south.

Anyhoo... and no Sind, I don't recall there ever being a name for Fingolfin's oath to big bro.

[BittenBuggy]

Ok, I really only have one major point in this chapter (that the lovely Sind has not already mentioned)

I think the love between Finwe and his son is a very special thing. It is illustrated here:

“For said Finwë: 'While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.'”

While we are all inwardly calling Finwe stupid, as a parent, there is nothing that your children can do that you won’t forgive them for. In a way - its like the parable of the sheep and the shepard. Jesus has his 99 good sheep, but one runs away. He leaves all the others to bring the lost one back. I see Finwe as not necessarily being blind to the ‘corruption’ of his son, but rather he knew that Feanor needed him more than Fingolfin and Finarfin. In return, Feanor loved him more than he ever loved any other. Its very bittersweet.

The relationship between Feanor and Fingolfin has always struck me as one-sided. I see Fingolfin as being very loyal, to his family especially. I have heard it argued that he ‘idolized’ his big brother and thats why he was so forgiving, but I can’t quite see that. Fingolfin was the ‘oldest son’ in his own right, and it has already been said that they both grew proud.

“Nevertheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwë, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.'

Then Fëanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide as.'

'I hear thee,' said Fëanor. 'So be it.' But they did not know the meaning that their words would bear.”

I also think its important to notice how Fingolfin changes as an Elf because of what he goes through. Right now, he is a bit more ‘Finarfinish’ (shut up Inglor - that will NEVER be said again) but he has never really known hardship. Finarfin never really did - but he never made the promise to follow Feanor. Everything seemed to change in Fingolfin once he crossed Helcaraxe. He watched a third of his people die and when he got across, his nephew was chained to Morogth’s mountain, his son ran off to save him and then bam, he was suddenly a king. As a person, that has to harden you against a lot of things.

And of course, I LOVE this:

“Then the pursuit was begun; and the earth shook beneath the horses of the host of Oromë, and the fire that was stricken from the hooves of Nahar was the first light that returned to Valinor”.

*Shivers*

[Saralitazie]

[inglor]

Thanks BB but I wouldn't go that far; I've always seen Fingolfin's reconciliation as not really backing down but knowing Feanor wouldn't and he did it for the good of the Noldor, not because he forgave his brother. I don't think Fingolfin was being duplicitous just "taking one for the team".

I like the parable too. I think you are right, Fing and Fina weren't the needy ones.

Here's my beef with Finwe: A king is a father to his people first, he should have "sucked up" his guilt and led like a good king shoud

Did he remove to Formenos out of guilt or love?

Inglor

[Saralitazie]

Probably a mixture of both. He did love his son, but he most likely felt guilty too - "If I hadn't gotten Miriel preggers, she wouldn't have died..Feanor would n't be such an asswipe..Guess I better go to Formenos"

[Anna]

Ok, I will now flaunt my ignorance; is Ungoliant and Shelob one and the same? Hmm...I never got that...

[BittenBuggy]

No, Shelob and Ungoliant were not one in the same - Shelob is the last living off-spring though.

[Anna]

Yay, I´m not a complete fool!

[inglor]

I am NOT trying to be funny or hijack this thread and please forgive me for bringing HIM up but a thought just occured to me:

Could Ungoliant be the Anti-Bombadil? If Tom sprung from Arda itself as a benevalent force(as nwe are lead to believe) couldn't the same be said for Ungoliant as a malignant force

Good and Evil balancing out thing

I know he there is discussion as to why he was put in the story at all but we know nothing of his origins either, could she be the yen to Bombadil's dillo... oops I mean yang,

I know she consumed herself but she left offspring and it seems like there is an old saying: without Evil, Good stagnates and without Good, evil devours itself. Tom was sure stagnating in the Old Forest. Not saying Tom and Ungoliant were once an item just that the two were connected somehow

Then again, I could be high...

*ANNA/ANDRETH... HELP!*




Inglor
*hunkers down for the tomato throw-a-ding-dillo*