[ElizabethWyeth]

You know, I have been lurking for a bit and see a lot of whining about popular authors. A lot of whining. ANd I came her after being told that this place fosters a more welcoming attitude than HA and HASA.

Sadly disappointed.

And being the author of a not overly popular fic myself, I can sit here and tell you all you are just toting sour grapes with a clear conscience. I came here in search of a place to share het fic tips and be in a lower key spot than HA. I came here told this was a place that fostered writers with care and sensitivity, instead I find them singling out authors for whine-fest bar-b-q. Not the way to earn yourselves a rep.

What would be more constructive would be to perhaps look at popular authors and see what it is they are about.

I notice that among a lot of the popular authors, there is no continuity of theme, style or genre. (Well, leggy fics aside)

Many but not all are nothing more than GOOD FIC. And
what the well constructed fics have in common is a good balance of pathos, empathy, well formed descriptive narrative, good technical research, and deeply investing characters both foreground and background. They don't overburden the reader with any one aspect but rather unite these several components to sculpt a loveable tale. In short, many of them are intuitively just writing a balanced tale.

I'll illustrate with a fic that has been seeing a lot of badly disguised bitterness amongst the so called "friendly" folks here. Captain My Captain.... The author of which is a really nice gal. I should know, I've known her for a while now. She did not start writing it as a popular author, in fact, she was a nobody in a sea of fanfic writers like Altariel who were well known. She picked a vignette in the trilogy that interested and moved her with the idea of staying as close to cannon as possible. Not close to cannon to snub any non-cannon or movie-verse writers, or to show off but because that is where her heart as an author lie.

She picked the tale and agonized over, just like you all do over your fics. Writing her 52nd chapter, she still agonizes over every line. She does not push when it won't come and she has a set of guidelines that aid her in creating a story that is as hopefully engaging to others as it is to her. It's not a popularity contest, it's a work of love that is well fashioned.

Among her rules is that she will not make a chapter under 1500 words, else just as the rythm of the chapter is establishing itself, it piddles out and droips off. Listen to that statement again.... "Rythm" She acknowledges a rythm to writing, like a distance runner, there is an issue of pacing.

And she also will not gratuitously insert graphic sex into CMC. There is nothing wrong with graphic sex in a story. But sexual encounters, like battles and the recovery of wounds (HC) and all sorts of other climactic events in the "life" of a character require a balance and it is very easy to use a powerful component like a sexual encounter to put the rest of the story out of balance.

Also she researches and hones her characters, developing them in her mind before she puts them on paper. She works to define what characters are available in cannon and then fills in the gaps with OC's that are as very compelling as Tolkien's own characters. And then when her plot spots are filled she sculpts the characters to be unique. An author needs you to care about the shepherd's son that just got ran over by the army of orks, but that takes giving a soul to the shepard's son first. And that is what she does.
That is what any good author does.

She's not out to impress us with how much she knows about diseases or modern medicine or herbology or weapos smithing or sexual evokativity or poetry or any one component of a story. She's here to tell us a tale about human nature. A story about poeple who love and live and skrew up and get into and out of trouble and carry on in the same way all real poeple must. Her and other people's popular stories are sometimes popular just for their effectiveness in telling the tale of what it is to be human.


I am her worst critic ( of her honest ones, not the ones sitting around here making pathetic excuses) I love Isabeau as my friend and so I don't give her a bit of credit she does not deserve. I am not one of those people who thinks "sycophant" and "friend" are synonymous. If her stories suck in my opinion (and occassionally she throws an onion out of her mental barrel) then I tell her. I get on her nerves piclking her stories apart and giving her my two cents more than she might want. But her stories are beautiful, and good quality, and every shining review she ever got, she deserved.

I have tried to emulate her style, not because I am trying to flatter her, but because I want to be as good an author as she. But she is a better crafter of tales than I am.

Without bitterness I can look at my works which have not gotten near as much notice as hers, and I can say that is because my story is not nearly as good as hers.


I am a much better visual artist than most of you will ever be.... Much better at it than Isabeau herself, though she is very good. It is very hard work, no day goes by that I don't spend hours drawing. I like getting reviews from people that see my art and love it and I do not feel bad that others are not as popular with their tolkien art as I am. Isabeau is like that with her writing. She works and works at it. And she humbly delights in the feedback.

If you were to all take up drawing and painting suddenly, would you then begin to complain that my works were flawed and that I was only accoladed because of politics? Or would you look at the evidence and try to learn what makes my art better? The same goes for Isabeau's writing, and Altariel's writing and many of the other popular writers. They are good at it. We that are just beginning as authors or we author's who have further to to improve need to be honest with ourselves. It is our writing that needs work, not the political situation surrounding popular authors.

I love all sorts of Tolkien fic. But I don't read most of what is out there. I troll for good works and one way I do that is to look at who is getting all the reviews. They are sometimes very,very good authors with compelling stories in genres that I would not have thought it possible for me to find fic I liked, let alone loved. I also love hobbit fic, it's what brought me to fanfiction to begin with. It's what I mostly read. The only non hobbit fic I read is suggested to me by many of the authors that are popular. But I don't like 90% of what is out there. But that is not the fault of the Authors of the 10% that I do like.

I hate the "Frodo gets the (fill in with disease of the week)".

I will write good hobbit fic one day. But i'm not gonna accomplish it yet, not the way I write. I don't have that balance yet. That balance between all the elements that carry a story. I've got some of them, and when I get the rest, I will be a popular author.

And If you are looking for empty reviews that say "Wow! This is great!"and are moaning that Isabeau has 400+ of them and you have 40 then you do not have the atitude of learning that will make you a great author one day. And she has stories that have only 10 reviews. And she is a better author than when she started. After 18 months of doing it like a 9 to 5 job, she aught to be better. Would that we were so dedicated to other things than complaining. ANd many authors are too busy to reply to all reviews. And if Isabeau gets an personnal email review than she DOES respond, but she can't respond to every review, nor should she feel bad about not doing so. It does not make her arrogant. Or disinterested in the "little guy".


Instead of sitting around bemoning the political nature of fiction popularity, how about just looking into what the popular fics have in content that ours do not. Stuff like style POV in relation to length obviously does not have the relevance to reader popularity that some think it does. So look at the real quality of the story. What really makes it up. The setting, the style and method of encountering trouble (HC fic is very unbalanced, it focuses too much on the technical in an effort to evoke emotions that would be better evoked with character development) You might learn something if you can look past your wounded egos and your fragile and fractured self images.


Sit back, quite whining about popular authors and try harder. Read that popular fic, it has a lot to teach you. You all sit around like you are master authors and say nonsense like, "I don't read popular fic, I read only the unsung fics. I want to avoid all the pretention" WEll, there is nothing more pretentious than that. Basically many of you sound like high school children trying to find a politic way of saying "No fair, you're popular and I am not!" It's writing, writing is art. True art leaves behind the ego in pursuit of perfection.

Pursue that perfection and quit bitching.

We write Tolkien fan-fic because Tolkien wrote really profound stories. He IS VERY POPULAR! Are you all gonna start bitching about Tolkien being too popular an author and the politics behind that next?

In the time that I have been here I have heard poeple complaining about everything from stories with over 600 reviews, stories with inapprpriate useage of sexual themes, stories that are by popular authors... and the list goes on. You all do a lot more catty whining than you do of helping each other.


If you want to reccomend an unsung fic do so! Bravo! But why is it neccessary to "champion" unsung fics by degrading popular authors and their works. What the hell is that? It's childish, that's what. We should all be out there looking for good, new, unsung fics, but that does not require dismantling the greatly known ones.

Anyone feel like getting back to fostering each other. I happen to know that if all of you woke up and had 600+ reviews tomorrow morning, you would not go "Oh no! For Shame! I'm a *gasp!* a POPULAR AUTHOR! I've sold out to 'the man'".

[Viv]

Thank you for posting and getting this all off of your chest. I hope you have noted the specific persons with whom you have a personal antipathy... and contacted them personally.

I know you have not contacted me personally. So I will respond pubicly.

The reality is that we write fic. We all write fic. Even the people who have 600 reviews.

In the end, fic is not Booker Prize worthy material. Not by a long shot. Yes, I am using fic as a tool to become a better writer. And yes, I have been vastly entertained by the fic some other folks have written. But I've never read a fic that I'd use as a model for writing.

So, back to the proposed purpose of this thread... I do not try to copy fic writers' styles or seek their secrets. Far as I'm concerned, everybody in ficdom is exactly where I am: we're all still just writing fic.

For guidance in the craft, I read Garcia Marquez, Abe Kobo, Flannery O'Connor, John Updike, etc. Those are the folks whose tips and tricks I'm interested in learning and emulating.

One more thing. You said that..

[ElizabethWyeth]

The reality is that we write fic. We all write fic. Even the people who have 600 reviews. In the end, fic is not Booker Prize worthy material. Not by a long shot. Yes, I am using fic as a tool to become a better writer. And yes, I have been vastly entertained by the fic some other folks have written. But I've never read a fic that I'd use as a model for writing.

I have found a few pearls that were as good as anything I have seen on the bookshelves at my local bookstore. So I do look into the writing styles of fanfic authors that I like in hope's of learning from them by seeing how they treated subjects that I am addressing. But that does not always do me any good. Dwim is one really good author that I like. But hell would freeze over before I could write like her. I prefer a more lyrical style and so I enjoy Altiriel's works a lot. Though her portrayal of Faramir sometimes makes me irritated, her writing style is very professional and she is a published author, I believe. (Though I need to ask her for sure) Very entertaining and very educational stylisticly. For me, anyway. I suspect I have a lot further to go in improving my writing style than maybe you do. ANd therefore perhaps I glean more from searching for quality fan-fic than others do.




So, back to the proposed purpose of this thread...

Indeed, I am afraid I went off track from the thread title with my original post. Oops...

I do not try to copy fic writers' styles or seek their secrets. Far as I'm concerned, everybody in ficdom is exactly where I am: we're all still just writing fic.

That is true of all writers, proffessional or not. The only difference between really good writers that are published and really good fan-fic authors is that fanfic authors are not authorized to publish their works because of copywrite infringement. Writing is writing.... So I am just as likely to learn from a good fanfic author as I am from a good published one.


I suspect that if I could get Isabeau to let CMC alone in order to write an original fantasy, then it would be published in no time.

Hint hint Isabeau!


For guidance in the craft, I read Garcia Marquez, Abe Kobo, Flannery O'Connor, John Updike, etc. Those are the folks whose tips and tricks I'm interested in learning and emulating.

Indeed, also people who have a lot to teach in their styles, but not because they are published. Not because they are award winning even. But because they wrote great things in general. (Though I am not a Flannery O'Connor fan.)

And I'm sorry that I do not agree with your proposal that I pattern my own writing after hers. But hopefully I've explained my reasons here well enough.

Hey, the point was that there are some great fanfic authors to read from and learn from. Isabeau is only one of many.

[ElizabethWyeth]

Sorry, I meant to slip this into the last post and it is quite too much to just edit in...


Quote:
Please realize that the fic world doesn't work this way. Dozens af enormously accomplished and talented and hardworking fic writers are not popular. And several very popular stories display neither accomplishment nor talent. Good writing and popularity are not necessarily related in ficdom. Heck, they don't necessarily go hand-in-hand in the professional publishing arena.

As a professional artist, I agree. Being part of the professional trade is not a stamp of assured quality.

And for writing, there is absolute tripe that is published Hence saying that writing that is good, regardless of it's state of published or not, is still worthy of study.

And there is some popular fan-fic that is bad.

There is also good fic that is unrecognized. But picking on popular fic does not help uncover and regail unrecognized yet talented writers. In fact it does nothing but alienate good authors among us.


So please don't be discouraged if you never reach the heights you've seen other writers inhabit. There could be lots of reasons for that, few of which have anything to do with the quality of your writing.

I don't concern myself with true popularity but rather with improving my style and technique. When I say that if I improve enough then I will be popular, what I mean is that my story has real potential and already some notice but that it would surely be better recieved in the form of reviews once I have it properly refined.

So I follow Isabeau and other authors for the reason that I can improve and hone when I read them. I have seen myself write things, think they were great and be baffled that few were reviewing the fic. Then I write and read more for a while, and when I go back I can see what I did wrong. Plain as day.

And if I never get a lot of reviews, I shall still be fine. After all, I have been so far.

And though I get a lot from the other authors, not everything they do is helpful to me. Isabeau writes CMC in 1st person? (it's 1 am here and I am having trouble keeping awake, let alone keeping my tenses straight right now.) I don't write in that tense well myself, so that aspect of her writing is of little use to me tutorial wise, but her story is passionate and dramatic without being burdensome. And I can peg onto that. You care what happens to Heth and all the others and are taken into the tale, along for the ride. And unlike Eowyn in Tolkien's work, (and even in some fic writers' stories) Heth is a good feminine archtype. Is she a mary Sue? Hell yes! But then look at Aragorn, he who could run for days non-stop, who could track orks leagues behind by laying his ear to the earth and who took on Sauron thru the Palantir and won. Talk about a Marty Stu...



Would I like to have pages and pages of reviews like Isabeau and many others? Sure, but then she is on chapter 52 and I am only on chapter 7.


Ilrhenir is a work of love even if he never becomes a household name. Following good FF author's works has helped me enormously in writing my story, though I will continue to write regardless of whether I get popular. I am glad for the popular artists and I still think there are things in many (but not all) of their works that make them more appealing and eminently worthy of study.


There are many that I could name that we can study and learn from. But I gotta go to bed now.

See ya

[Scribe]

[ElizabethWyeth]

I'm sorry that this place isn't as open as you thought but I personally think that someplace where people can talk, bitch (if you like) argue the point, without fear of recrimination, is open enough.

True enough and if the thread had been called,"what I really dislike about popular authors" that would have been interesting and engaging and even fun. But it started out as a thread about uplifting unknown authors and yet I was pointed to almost no good, unsung authors. Is there a portion of the thread I missed where you all listed some unsung writers and proclaimed the need for us to pop over and support them.

No.

It was a forum discussion whining about how unpopular the writers were.

Would you care to be specific because as an admin I like to know to whom you are refering to then simply making accusations.

Well, that would be difficult since it was the majority of the posters in that thread, though there were some nice voices of reason.

And you are all alowed to talk about whatever you like. I never said otherwise. What I said was that it was unconstructive to try to uplift unknown authors by complaining about popular ones. And that is still true.

Personnally, I am still waiting for this list of unsung authors. I'd much rather go read of their works than sit here and read people whining about not being popular.

I didn't say you all had to love Isabeau's works, I said that her works and many others have a lot to teach and your time might be better spent not whining, which is what was happening, no matter the light you put on it. You are free to whine here if you want. Obviously....

But that doesn't mean I can't, to quote Ariel, "call a spade a spade".

And no, I don't assume I'm the only one learning anything from reading fanfic. But I am one of the few of your posting group members that has yet to sit around and complain about popular fic or unfairness or cliqueishness or partiality, non of which is either relevant to becomeing a better author or fostering that welcoming attitude you are all so proud of.

ANd it certainly hasn't pointed me to any good and yet unsung fic.

There are a few not getting in on this and to them I simply say that I wasn't talking about you. If you posted that popularity was not an issue for you because you just love to write, then Bravo! ANd there were a couple of you. ANd I was happy to see that.

Now I can either leave and decide you are all a bunch of snobs. In much the same light in which Henneth Annun and HASA have been cast, only more so because of the het and gen restriction here. Or, I can assume this is one of those growing pains that Isabeau warned you that all groups have.

I think I'll stick around.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, back to the purpose of this thread, which is to discuss the good techniques of popular writers....



When writing my fic I was pretty set on a female character and god knows there are enough of them out there. OC's that are girls or even women. And some of them are well done. But I knew that there would be a difficulty of plausibly inserting a woman into battle sequences. Women going to war as soldiers in western society is relatively new. Isabeau found, or rather created the perfect insertion of a female OC in Captain, MY Captain. But that sort of thing was not going to work on my little Breeland born girl.

I have always loved bree and did not consider it the dark place cast in the movies. Gandalf would not have sent his hobbits wandering into a Prancing pony full of shady characters and suspicious goings on. It was, as I read it, a nice little middle class inn and tavern. And that is also how I viewed the village of Bree itself. A settled little community on the verges of hobbit territory.

ANd I kept trying to sit down and write Ilrhenir as a girl. And I was SO floundering!

But After reading some of Thundara Tiger's "The Ring Goes South", I had a much better feel for the dynamics of a group of traveling, possibly warring men. She captured that wonderfully. There was humor and yet drama. Commaraderie yet tension. I really think that Tolkien would have himself been proud of her. I felt her sculpting of the Journey was nothing short of brilliant.

And while it was only chance that brought me too it. And of course someone going "You gotta read this!" it was very helpful. Because suddenly, Ilrhenir was a boy not a girl. And I was working on looking at the ease with which the fellowship flowed in her plot.
I was myself then trying to capture that odd thing that is male companionship, and trying to do it with the class she does it with.

I still go back and reread her works when I have gotten to a point in Ilrhenir where the flow should be tense but casual between him and the Rohirrim, when it's just not coming to me. Sometimes just reading her writing will attune me back to the way guys behave in groups and that is a potent and useful thing.

I mean, I never would have had Mithrandir betting with Aragorn over the compatibility of the fellowship. But of course he might. He's a knotty old wizard "guy" with a wiley sense of humor and an addiction to pipe weed.

[Ariel]

Gotta pat Scribe on the back for her post and cast a quizzical eye at Elizabeth.

I can honestly say, I can't see where you were getting some of that bitterness. Two comments were made and neither of them were embittered. One, that many highly praised works are not all they are cracked up to be. I can think of one right off that I think sucks that has 638 reviews on ff.net - but because the girl is very nice and I would not want to hurt her feelings, I am not willing to mention it by name. Nice people CAN write crap too.

Second, that it is frustrating when you write nice emails and reviews to an author, follow their work for a long time, adore and recommend their fic - and yet they never even deign to read your fic or comment (or even answer, sometimes) back. That has nothing to do with quality or nicety or anything else - that is just disheartening - and upon occasion, it helps to vent one's spleen. You have done so above, so obviously you also enjoy this pastime.

I saw no sour grapes, I saw no biting commentary, no one complaining because they themselves weren't popular - just people who write fanfic and who felt like venting a bit. What is wrong with that?

And as for not finding unsung fics - I saw SEVERAL posted in the Fanfic Discussion thread - but perhaps because they were mired in discussion you missed them?

Ariel

[Gaslight]

Elizabeth, if you failed to find fics on that rec thread that piqued your interest, I would be inclined to believe that it is because of different personal tastes, not because we are somehow lacking in basic skills at recognizing a good/interesting fic. A pesky thing that all of us are not alike, no? No one is going to post a golden fic all the time that will meet with approval from everyone. I think the intention was to have a bit of a bookstore on hand where one could browse titles and see if anything leaped off the shelf.

I have enjoyed the discussion about the popularity of other authors because I have been flummoxed on MANY occasions about a certain author and, I might add, not moaned in the same breath that they have more reviews than I. It's been nice to feel that I can discuss the topic with others and NOT be accused of "sour grapes" because that is not how I feel. I am not jealous, merely puzzled and curious. However, the strategy you suggest -- reading, learning and, unconsciously or not, APEING someone else's style -- is something that I think many writers would want to avoid. I work hard at my writing and every sentence is considered tenfold before I post it. This is my own style and I'll plug away at it for the rest of my writing days. I will not read Captain My Captain and concoct some knockoff of Hethlin. I did read 40 chapters and that was enough. I have no interest in apeing Isabeau's style.

Your defense must be heartening for her, but it does seem a bit rabid. If you are upset that I, for one, was not blown away by CMC, then I cannot help that. It all boils down to personal tastes and different standards. My reservations about that fic do not begin and end with her review tally (sorry to disappoint). I have reviewed it a couple times on ff.net in detail but (and this goes back to one of Ariel's topics), I have never received any recognition for them so, combined with my overall coolness towards the fic as a whole, my interest in it gradually faded away. That is all. *shrugs*

[ElizabethWyeth]

Hmmm.... I suppose in the end I was just a little surprised, perhaps reacted a tiny bit strongly.

After all, I heard this exact same whining going on on HA by some of the same people doing it here. And I would have thought that after all this time, that kind of puling would have gotten old. Apparently not.

Viv and Scribe have been very accomodating about recognizing what kind of impression your discussion may have had on new members. I can tell you that I know a couple of popular authors that are pretty much lurking occassionally now instead of participating because they were offended. Sure I'm a baddy for pointing out how sad that whole thread was becoming and sure I did it in a very strong voiced manner. But really, one can only sit by and read that for so long.

The thread posts there showed no less conciet or unfriendliness than you would find on HA on an average day. So I was also surprised to read the older HASA thread to see the same group of people accusing HA of the same thing going on in the reccomendation thread.

I am still willing to be a member here and share. But I won't concede that you were doing anything but useless, hurtful whining. And to get to the suggested fics in that thread, you had to mill through all that.

So by all means, start the roundtable thread. I think it's a great idea. I know not to go there expecting anything that I am not already used to seeing. Those who need it will have a place to have their inner moppets spanked... And I can now go to the reccomendation thread and actually find recomended fics. So I guess we're all happy now. Yes?

As for this discussion. Got any popular authors that you dolike? If you do. This is the place to spout what you think it is about their works that has them so popular. It's also the place to
say how they may have influenced your work.

I have a few more, but I've already started....

[Ariel]

Actually, the roundtable thread IS an excellent idea. I have seen it work very well on other threads and just wanted to try it here where I could talk to folks outside the very secular hobbit world.

And really, the one thing I keep seeing people accused of that I just don't see is people assuming that a vent is always aimed at getting people to read their fics! I have heard people at HASA complain about that too! I can't speak for anyone else, but that has never been my aim when I feel like venting. If I wanted people to read my fics, I would promote them - just like many others do - venting is just that - letting out a frustration! It has no ulterior motive beyond letting off steam and I work very hard to not direct my frustration to any person in particular. Your point is taken that some people might see themselves as the objects of the vent, but I can assure you no one you mentioned was. I have read a little of CMC and liked it. I'm a hobbit reader so it held little interest for me, but it was good. I've also read some of Dwim's pieces - with the same response. I really wasn't considering anyone in particular when grousing... and hoped I had made that clear. Maybe not.

Ariel

[ElizabethWyeth]

[Ariel]

*THUD*

OK... Ego stoked... Just hope I won't be looked at as one of those 'popular' authors now!

I am glad you liked it - and I agree with your assessment of most H/C fics. I think that was a reason I wrote that - to show that you could also have plot and character development in a H/C fic. That is also why I write hobbit het - to show it can be done believably. The only problem I have found is that a lot of people have already made up their minds about those genres and don't read any of it anymore. Ah well - it took me a while to realize one fic wasn't going to counter the impression hundreds have made.

Ariel

[Lindorien]

[ElizabethWyeth]

[Lindorien]

Okay, Elizabeth, I bow out.

You win though I realized not it was a competition.

whatever.

Lindorien