[BittenBuggy]

You're as bad as Sind when it comes to analyzing something to death, Inglor. Just let it bloody be!!

[Anna]

Very interesting, Inglor. Never thought about it that way... Actually, I´ve never really given Bombadil much thought at all -- he just annoys the crap out of me!

Yup, we definitely need Anna for this! Where is she? *frustrated sigh*

[Saralitazie]

Whenever I read the trilogy I skip the parts with dear ol' Tommy boy - the endless poetry annoys me to no end! But hey, Inglor, that's an interesting theory about Ungy - I, however, agree with Beebs:

[Andreth]

I'm still around, but between getting the kids off to their various summer camps, trying to train a dog with a new prosthetic leg, and bringing home a new colt, I have had a hella-weekend/week. And the weeks' not even half over yet. Somebody just shoot me now. I've had time to sneak in here and read, but no time to post.

I will be back tomorrow and play catch up on the past few days' posts. I'm not mentally coherent enough to post anything tonight - anything I wrote would be more long-winded and rambling than usual, and I like BB too much to subject the poor soul to torture like that. You guys have brought up another of my favorite mystery men, Tom Bombadil.

So - *insert Arnie voice here*- Ah'll be back.

[inglor]

[BittenBuggy]

Inglor: I think your thoughts on the reasoning behind why Fingolfin would be so forgiving are well founded. Howver, I dont think we have enough information on the issue to make even educated guesses. Personal presumption based on your views of the characters are about it.

Fingolfin strikes me as a person that cares about his people - so it might have been for the good of the Noldor. But then, why would he follow Feanor all the way into Middle Earth, even though his brother had abandoned him - thus he could rationalize that he wasn't to be held to his promise any longer? At that point, he was at a cross road. He had to choose between loyalty to his people (who would mostly die on the way) and loyalty to his brother. He crossed anyway.

To me, that says love, unrequited, but still love.

*shrug* Just personal perception

[inglor]

BB, you are right about the lack of information but...

I have the exact opposite opinion on the Crossing (imagine that )

I think he could have gone to spite Feanor. It would not be the only time FinG would do something just to spite someone and it not being the wisest decision.

Unlike his younger brother who was perfect . (That is just for BB, not so inside joke).

Lots were lost on the ice but those who survived were bound to Fingolfin in a fierce way. I can't say that I would react differently.

Besides, He had already made the decision to leave Valinor. He could crawl back to his younger brother and the derision of the Valinorians or he could go forward and explore a new world, show his older brother up, and maybe call him out. That would have been fun to watch.

Inglor

[Andreth]

Okay - no worries about pages of info on old Tom. There's not that much written about him and he is, in the words of Tolkien, an intentional enigma. Which only makes him all the more interesting.

But let's take a look at Inglor's hypothesis about good/evil. Even though Tolkien made no intentional connection between Tom and Ungoliant, Inglor's right - they are polar opposites.

Tom first - if you want to get technical, he's only in LotR because Tolkien had already created him and wanted an 'adventure' for the Hobbits on their way to Bree. So the professor is happy to find a place for a favorite character in his new tale, and Tom fits in quite seamlessly to this tale of Man and Machine. When the professor finally does expound on Tom, he says Tom is essentially represents pure, real, natural science. The desire to learn about nature just for the sake of learning about it - just because things are different from one another - but not actually *doing* anything with the knowledge. Just being happy to let nature exist as it is without building machines or inventions to 'improve' upon it. Which Professor Tolkien personally saw as one of the great evils of the world.

This is why Tom isn't interested in the Ring or affected by its power - because he simply doesn't care. He has no use for it, he's beyond its power of temptation. Tom is the Eldest in Time, primeval according to Tolkien. He is the spirit of Nature in its true, unaffected form, and Nature would have begun with the first breath of creation of Arda.

Ungoliant, on the other hand, in the earliest tales was called Moru, a primeval spirit, Primeval Night personified, and that not even the Valar knew where she came from. That perhaps she was bred from the mists and the darkness that coated the Shadowy Seas. She was a black hole of Nothingness that sucked in the light and turned it to darkness. In the earlier Tales it says that she was the reason so little of the Light of the Trees escaped Valinor - because she would devour it greedily and use it to create her darkness.

To me, she seems like a personification of evil, a thing that's never sated and the more it consumes what it desires, the more ravenous it becomes. So between Tom and Ungoliant you have two Primeval spirits, one good and one bad.

Another interesting footnote is that the region where Ungoliant dwells, Avathar, in the original tales was called Arvalin. Before Tolkien had come up with the idea of giving Mortals the Gift of Iluvatar, Elven souls went to Mandos and Mortal souls went to Fui Nienna, and from there Mortal souls sailed on a dark ship down to Arvalin where they wandered until the End of Time. So it was always this kind of dark Netherworld.

Now onto the actual chapter of the story - yet again I admire Fingolfin's inner strength that allows him to be the bigger man and forgive Feanor, something which Feanor never seems to really acknowledge or appreciate, and yet again I'm appalled at Finwe's lack of paternal caring for any of his children except Feanor.

Fingolfin is able to put his pride aside and openly forgive his brother, who held a blade to his throat and threatened to kill him. It may be just me, but I've always seen this as his Vanyarin traits overcoming his inherent Noldor pride. Either way about it, it took a lot of kindness to forgive Feanor, but sometimes kindness is misinterpreted as weakness.

Finwe's following Feanor to Formenos after being justifiably banned from Tuna for his death threats, must have been like a slap in the face to Fingolfin, in my opinion. And now we have Finwe refusing to return to the city, even with Feanor in Valmar, while the ban is still in effect. In Morgoth's Ring, Finwe's words are that he won't return to Tuna, will hold himself unkinged and will not meet his people, nor those who rule in his stead, which of course is his own son.

The books say that Feanor inherited Miriel's stubborn nature, and now it seems that what he inherited from his father was this ability to shut out people he supposedly loves in order to hold on to his own anger and pride. I've just always thought of Feanor and Finwe's relationship as an unhealthy, enabling relationship but that's probably just more overanalyzation of the situation.

Okay, so my post ended up being incredibly long and boring after all, but at least it wasn't all about Tom Bombadil!

Anna

[inglor]

I love it when she does that (no, not saying I'm right). Imparting more wisdom on us mere mortals than we asked for.

Yay Andreth!
You chose your pen name well

Inglor

[Saralitazie]

Ah, my soul has been fed by the words of the Great Anna. I can rest in peace now..

[BittenBuggy]

Oh, you're all so bloody cynical.

[Saralitazie]

Riiiight. I'm cynical. Well, ain't that just ducky.

[Andreth]

Thank you much for the compliments. It's nice to be able to help people out *and* indulge my know-it-all tendencies, all at the same time.

Oh, BB - you just think we're cynical because we think Finwe obviously needed to take some parenting classes. But don't feel bad. Haleth and Anna-Anna share your Feanorian appreciation, so you're not alone. In fact, over at the Silmfics group on the yahoo lists, about 99% of those people are Feanorian-crazy, so you have lots of kindred spirits out there.