[Andreth]

Since I'm not sure what you do and don't know about Dol Amroth, I'll just tell you what I know and let you pick which parts are of use to you.

As Nancy pointed out, Dol Amroth is the dwelling itself, a "stronghold on a promontory in Belfalas" according to UT. Edellhond was the nearby Elven haven just to the north of Dol Amroth, and it was abandoned I think in 1981.

The establishment of the Line of Dol Amroth began with Galador (2004-2129) who was the son of Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas the Elven-lady. Now Imrazor is called a Numenorean and that's certainly an Adunaic name, but keep in mind that Imrazor was born almost 2000 years after Numenor was destroyed (1950-2076). He obviously had the longer lifespan of those of Numenorean descent, so maybe the fact that he's specifically called a Numenorean means that his ancestors didn't intermarry with the lesser races of Men in Middle-earth like so many other Numenoreans did.

Anyway, his son Galador is the first Lord of Dol Amroth and apparently this took place when the Stewards took up rule of Gondor. PoME says "After the ending of the kings they became virtually independent princes, ruling over Belfalas, but they were at all times loyal to the Steward as representing the ancient crown."

This is just my take on it, but I think what happened was that after the ending of the kings the lands were subdivided; each area had a ruler and that ruler was loyal to the Stewards, who were representatives of the crown.

As to an oath resembling the one that was taken in Rohan - the oath of Cirion and Eorl seems to be something special, as in not something commonly done. And also you have to look at the politics of the bloodlines involved - the smaller fiefdoms of Gondor were more than likely all ruled by men of Numenorean descent so there wasn't really much purpose for an oath to be sworn. Their Numenorean bloodlines would have made them loyal to the Stewards, ruling in the kings' stead.

The people of Eorl, on the other hand, were Northmen, descended from the Three Houses of the Edain as the Numenoreans were, but the Northmen were not of Numenorean descent. When Cirion granted the lands of Calenardhon to Eorl and his people, he was welcoming the Northmen into the folds of a Numenorean-founded and ruled country. The Oath between Gondor and Rohan was special, mostly because of Cirion's part in it because no King of Gondor had sworn an oath since Elendil before the Last Alliance. (As Steward of the King, Cirion was allowed the power to swear that oath.) As the stories frequently show, oath making was not something that was taken lightly or done routinely in Middle-earth. They were taken very seriously and done only when special circumstances warranted it.

So that's my take on the oath part of it. As for the establishment of Numenorean settlements, those began in the Second Age in the time of Aldarion, King of Numenor, and called The Mariner King. He was born in 700 SA and died in 1098, and the good majority of his time was spent either in Middle-earth or sailing to and from. I believe the voyages by Numenorean mariners continued after his death, but increased dramatically after the War of the Elves and Sauron in Eregion.

At the time of Ar-Adunakhor (about 2900-2962), PoME says, "The shores of the Bay of Belfalas were still mainly desolate, except for a haven and small settelemtn of Elves atthe mouth of the confluence of Morthond and Ringlo. But it was long before the Numenorean settlers about the Mouths of Anduin ventured north of their great haven at Palargir and made contact with the Men who dwelt in the valleys on either side of the White Mountains."

If there were any Numenorean settlements around Belfalas, they probably were sparsely populated. If I had to guess, I'd say there weren't a lot of Numenoreans in that area until after Isildur's ships landed or probably not until the beginning of the Third Age. There would have probably been other Men around there, natives of Middle-earth.

I hope I didn't just repeat a bunch of stuff that you already knew.

Anna

[Andreth]

I was going to just PM this stuff to Nancy and Miss Weavil so I wouldn't take up a bunch of room with another long post. But I think I'll post it anyway in case it'll help some of you others who are researching Dol Amroth. This is the section from Peoples of Middle-earth, Heirs of Elendil that Nancy mentioned:

"In the tradition of his house Angelimir was the 20th in unbroken descent from Galador first Lord of Dol Amroth (c. TA 2004 2129). According to the same traditions Galadro was the son of Imrazor the Numenorean who dwelt in Belfalas and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves of Lorien that fled to the coast about TA 1980 when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens strayed in the wooded hills and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazor harboured Mithrellas and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night, and he saw her no more. But though Mithrellas was of the lesser silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth were noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind.

The House of Dol Amroth

Amroth, brother of Celeborn flies from northern Lorien when the Balrog drives out the Dwarves about 1980 TS

Mithrellas, one of the companions of Nimrodel, is lost in the woods of Belfalas and is harboured by Imrazor the Numenorean (added in margin: Imrazor 1950-2076), who takes her to wife (according to the legends and traditions of Dol Amroth); though after a few years she vanishes, whether to wander in the woods or seek the havens. The son of the union of Mithrellas and Imrazor received the elven-name of Galador; from him the lords of Dol Amroth traced their descent. After the ending of the kings they became virtually independent princes, ruling over Belfalas, but they were at all times loyal to the Steward as representing the ancient crown.

1 Galador 2004-2129 (125)
2 ... 2060-2203 (143)
3 ... 2120-2254 (134)
4 ... 2172-2299 (127)
5 ... 2225-2348 (123)
6 ... 2274-2400 (126)
7 ... 2324-2458 (134)
8 ... 2373-2498 (125)
9 ... 2418-2540 (122)
10 ... 2463-2582 (119)
11 ... 2505-2623 (118)
12 ... 2546-2660 (114)
13 ... 2588-2701 (113)
14 ... 2627-2733 (106)
15 ... 2671-2746 (75) slain by Corsairs of Umbar
16 ... 2709-2799 (90) slain in battle
17 ... 2746-2859 (113)
18 ... 2785-2899 (114)
19 Aglahad 2827-2932 (105)
20 Angelimir 2866-2977 (111)
21 Adrahil 2917-3010 (93)
22 Imrahil 2955-3054 (99)
23 Elphir 2987-(3087=) F.A. 57 (100)
24 Alphros 3017-(3115=) F.A. 95 (98 )

In contrast to this carefully written page the other form of this list has a scrawled note at its head, the same as that in the text just give but extending only to the words 'harboured by Imrazor the Numenorean, who weds her'; and the dates are written in pencil with some corrections. Imrazor is numbered 1, so that Angelimir is the twenty-first prince; but this was corrected. The life-span of the sixteenth prince was given as 91 years in stead of 90 and my father followed this in the second text; and where the second text has 'slain in battle' the first has 'Battle with Orcs'.

The statement here that Amroth was the brother of Celeborn appears to be unique (for other accounts of him see the History of Galadrien and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales: but all the material concerning Amroth collected there come from after, much of it long after, the publication of The Lord of the Rings.) On both forms of the present text the words were struck out and on the second my father pencilled 'was a Sinda from Beleriand'. With the time of Amroth's flight from Lorien cf. the entry for 1981 in App. B: 'The Dwarves flee from Moria many of the Silvan Elves of Lorien flee south. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost'.

No events are recorded elsewhere in the years 2746 and 2799 that cast light on the deaths in battle of the fifteenth and sixteenth princes of Dol Amroth.

The dates of the deaths of Prince Imrahil and of Farmir Prince of Ithilien in the geneaology redrawn on pg 221 (3054= Fourth Age 34, and 3103= F.A. 83) place the beginning of the Fourth Age in 3021; similarly in the list of the princes given above the dates of the deaths of Elphir and Alphros, 3087 and 3115, and equated with FA 67 and 95. In text C of the Heirs of Elendil the Fourth Age began in 3022, and in text B the Third Age ended in 3019.

The Princes Aglahad, Angelimir, Elphir, and Alphros are only recorded in these texts, as also are other members of the line of Dol Amroth in the genealogical table, Ivriniel, Erchirion, and Amrothos. Faramir's son Elboron likewise only appears in this genealogy. In him an old name reappears: Elboron and Elbereth were the original names of the young sons of Dior Thingol's Heir who were murdered by the followers of Maidros. Later the sons of Elrond were named Elboron and Elbereth, before they became Elladan and Elrohir. "

[SpaceWeavil]

So Amroth is listed there as Celeborn’s brother? OK, that complicates matters a bit, since according to the Unfinished Tales, Amroth’s father (and therefore Celeborn’s?) was killed in the Last Alliance at Dagorlad. That would do for some more angst I suppose.

I haven’t got Peoples of Middle Earth yet. Still building up my collection bit by bit. Maybe I can convince my father that it’s on the preliminary reading list for uni?

[Andreth]

It says that's this is the only place it's mentioned and that Tolkien crossed it out, so it's yet another version of Amroth's lineage. UT also says that he's Galadriel and Celeborn's son, born before Celebrian I think. Most people just pick whatever version suits them so you're okay with whichever way works with your story.

[SpaceWeavil]

I’m still debating whether to ignore it or not. I think I might have enough going on without having Celebrian’s granddad killed on Dagorlad as well. I’ve already had to juggle bits and pieces from both the Galadriel/Celeborn section and the Amroth/Nimrodel, but I’ve just added a note at the beginning about it. it does get very confusing after a while

But anyway, I am digressing again…. sorry.

[BittenBuggy]

[GypsieRose]

A few points which may help or may only complicate things further:

1. "Cirion and Eorl" offers some extra wrinkles on the history of the House of Dol Amroth: It says that they were given the title of Prince by Elendil, "with whom they had kinship. They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas...." (p. 316). CT's note adds that this seems to contradict the idea of Galador being the first lord of Dol Amroth. If you want to use both ideas, the easiest way to reconcile them is to assume that they were princes since Elendil's time but that their home was not called Dol Amroth until after Amroth's drowning.

2. About the Oath of Eorl: I believe the reason why Éomer renews it is because the original oath was made to the Steward Cirion. Therefore it needs to be renewed when the king returns, to confirm that the gift of Calenardhon is still honored. It's kind of like making an agreement with a Vice-President of a company; when the President returns, you would double-check the agreement with him.

3. I could imagine the lord of each fief going through some kind of formal ceremony to declare his loyalty to the King or Steward when he comes into his lordship.

And an extra question:

4. They Encylopedia of Arda lists Imrahil an Adûnaic name, but HoME at one point says it is Telerin Elvish. Did EoA just assume it was Adûnaic because it looks like Imrazôr or did Tolkien change his mind and write somewhere that it is in fact Adûnaic? Also, related to this idea, I've seen the assumption that all the men of the Dol Amroth family use Adûnaic names, although the women's names seem to be Sindarin. Do we have any evidence beyond that assumption? Many of the princes' names in the genealogy from HoME look like they could be Sindarin to me.

--Rose

[Andreth]

I'm glad you found that mention of the princes. I'd forgotten all about it. I always say that the footnotes usually have more interesting tidbits in them than the chapters do.

Here's the last half of that footnote with some other nice tidbits:

"The note just cited seems to suggest that this family of the Faithful settled in Belfalas with a stronghold on Dol Amroth before the Downfall of Numenor; and if that is so, the two statements can only be reconciled on the supposition that the line of the Princes, and indeed the place of their dwelling, went back more than two thousand years before Galador's day, and that Galadro was called the first Lord of Dol Amroth because it was not until his time (after the drowning of Amroth in the year 1981) that Dol Amroth was so named. A further difficulty is the presence of an Adrahil of Dol Amroth (clearly an ancestor of Adrahil the father of Imrahil, Lord of Dol Amroth) as a commander of the forces of Gondor in the battle against the Wainriders in the year 1944; but it maybe supposed that this earlier Adrahil was not called 'of Dol Amroth' at that time.

While not impossible, these explanations to save consistency seem to be to be less likely than that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth."

So in other words, he doesn't know. Looks like you have yet another choice to make, Miss Weavil And if you want to have them taking oaths in your story then there's nothing wrong with that. The idea just doesn't work for me personally, because of the significance Tolkien seems to give to oaths, but there's nothing that disproves the lords giving oaths, to my knowledge.

And on the Lords using Adunaic names, Tolkien says somewhere in all that mess I posted above that Galador is an Elven name, so there's one that definitely didn't have an Adunaic name. In PoME, pg 32, The Appendix on Languages it says "The names of other lords of the Dunedain such as Arathorn, Aragorn, Boromir, Denethor are for the most part Noldorin; but Imrahil and Adrahil are Numenorean (Adunaic) names." But then just a few pages after this he lists Imrahil in with a list of Elvish names given to the House of Dol Amroth. The names on the list of princes above look Adunaic for the most part, but who knows?

[SpaceWeavil]

The oath thing isn’t anything to do with my story, I was just putting my tuppence’ worth in I just felt that there would be some sort of ceremony to acknowledge the fiefdom, not necessarily an oath for the reasons you pointed out, but something. That’s just looking at it from the technical/legal definition of a fiefdom, as I said.

My story’s based on the Galadriel/Celeborn thing that says they headed off to Dol Amroth or thereabouts after the War of Elves and Sauron. That’s why I’m sticking my nose in here The other one involving Dol Amroth’s my Denethor thing but it’s very much on the backburner at the moment. Still, this is all very handy stuff.

So if it wasn’t called Dol Amroth, then I wonder what it was called?

[Andreth]

And I just remembered this one - I knew I'd seen something recently about Dol Amroth but I couldn't place it until just now. Another long posts full of quotes, so bail now if you don't want to read it.

This is from Letters of Tolkien and the letter is actually about Faramir, but Tolkien gives a little insight into the politics of Gondor. Post Ring war anyway:

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory and clearing it of outlaws and orc remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (morgul)! I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Numenorean King was a monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (for the representative of the King during his absence aborad or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would be the chief counselor."

Tolkien was obviously pretty pissed at this guy he was writing the letter to, because the guy was giving some criticism on the way Tolkein had written Faramir. The guy seemed to think that Faramir and Eowyn falling in love so quickly was improper or something. This was actually the reason I had been looking at this letter the other day, for this quote:

"Criticism of the speed of the relationship or 'love' of Faramir and Eowyn. In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler."

Sorry, had to share. Sometimes the old guy surprises me because he varies between being uptight and liberal. Very interesting.

Anna

[Andreth]

[GypsieRose]

[NancyBrooke]

Thank you all for adding to this discussion! I have learned so much. Gotta get me some of them other books one of these old days.

[Andreth]

You're very welcome, Nancy. Glad you could use the info.

[Andreth]

Almost forgot - my friend also mentioned that the castle of Dol Amroth was called Tirith Aear (Seaward Tower). I found this in my copy of the Tolkien Companion but I'm blank as to where it came from in the books. Anybody know?