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GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | But in the published version of RotK he decided to include references to the Numenorean language after all, so the Elvish Noldorin references went away and Adunaic remained. My friend said that Imrahil and Adrahil were included in the Adunaic section of his language dictionary. I haven't checked any of mine yet though. |
So the reason people mostly accept them as Adunaic is because that is believed to be the later-written passage in PoME? The names weren't said to be Noldorin in PoME, by the way, but "Lemberin (>Telerin)."
Re "Elphir," I just remembered at least one Sindarin word with a "ph" in it--"Pheriannath"--so I guess the jury's still out on that one. Names beginning with "El-" often are Sindarin, but it still looks a little odd to me. I could go either way.
| Quote: | | In that letter I posted a few messages up Tolkien says that the Prince of Ithilien was the greatest noble after Dol Amroth |
Yes, that's what I was responding to. I know Tolkien said that, but I have a hard time believing the Prince of one fief would outrank the Steward of the reunited kingdom. Maybe he was thinking of the title "Prince of Ithilien" on its own without considering the added title of Steward. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| GypsieRose wrote: | | So the reason people mostly accept them as Adunaic is because that is believed to be the later-written passage in PoME? The names weren't said to be Noldorin in PoME, by the way, but "Lemberin (>Telerin)." |
Yes, it gets all muddled up for me in the transition between Gnomish-Noldorin-Telerin-Sindarin, etc... but IIRC Lemberi was an early name for the Sindar and Lemberin refers to the language they spoke before the Noldor returned to Middle-earth. Noldorin is supposed to be the combination of the languages that resulted in the Quenya-speaking Noldor who adopted the language of the Sindarin-speaking Teleri. Anyway, that's an unnecessary tangent. Sorry. I tend to ramble. 
I believe that Imrahil was referred to as a Numenorean name in Appendix E of RotK, but I couldn't tell you exactly where it was. Been a while since I read through all the appendices.
| Quote: | | Re "Elphir," I just remembered at least one Sindarin word with a "ph" in it--"Pheriannath"--so I guess the jury's still out on that one. Names beginning with "El-" often are Sindarin, but it still looks a little odd to me. I could go either way. |
It also says somewhere either in the appendices or in the notes in PoMe that Adunaic borrowed heavily from the Elvish languages, so it possibly could have just been a combination.
| Quote: | | Yes, that's what I was responding to. I know Tolkien said that, but I have a hard time believing the Prince of one fief would outrank the Steward of the reunited kingdom. Maybe he was thinking of the title "Prince of Ithilien" on its own without considering the added title of Steward. |
Ah, sorry, I must not have read the post closely enough. Tolkien is also very confusing on how he uses the structure of nobility/nobles in Middle-earth, so I have absolutely no idea how that power structure would play out. Maybe when the Stewards aren't actively performing in their role, they would be ranked as nobles, but when the King is absent and the Stewards wield the powers of the king, then they're, of course, the highest power. That's the only idea that comes to mind for me. Your guess is as good as mine. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:50 am Post subject: |
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*blinks*
*runs*
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Re "Elphir," I just remembered at least one Sindarin word with a "ph" in it--"Pheriannath"--so I guess the jury's still out on that one. Names beginning with "El-" often are Sindarin, but it still looks a little odd to me. I could go either way. |
There can be a ph sound in Sindarin but it’s to do with the mutation of the consonants, which I will admit to only barely grasping. Basically the consonant will change depending on how the word is used. Pheriannath is from Periannath (some hobbits), and you’d use it with certain prepositions like Ed (out of), ned (in), o (from) etc., if that makes sense. So it could be o pheriannath, from the hobbits?
Saying that, I can’t find anything obvious as a translation of Elphir in Sindarin.
I also have somewhere a book called ‘An Introduction to Elvish’ which is a collection of essays on Tolkien languages, and has a chapter on Adunic. I can hunt it out if anyone is interested. It isn’t a very long essay if I remember rightly.
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GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | Maybe when the Stewards aren't actively performing in their role, they would be ranked as nobles, but when the King is absent and the Stewards wield the powers of the king, then they're, of course, the highest power. |
A Steward does a lot more than just watch the country while the King is away, though. They'd be the King's chief administrators even when the King was around. So again, I'd think that would be more power than the Prince of Dol Amroth would have, although perhaps less independent.
--Rose |
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