[Thuriniel]

I was just visiting "Encyclopedia of Arda" where it states that Elladan is the oldest twin, however, it doesn't specify which source they used to make this stament. I guess I could contact whoever is in charge there, but before I make a fool of myself, I decided to post the question here ... anyone has any insights on this?

Personally, I think that since Elves remember their begetting day rather than their birth day (in the case of the twins would be their "birth time" ), then Elrohir and Elladan would be exactly the same age, one not being older than the other since they were begotten at the same time. Does that make sense?

So my question is ... are the exactly the same age or is there any evidence out there that one is a few minutes / hours older than the other?

[BittenBuggy]

You make a very good point regarding them using a 'begetting day' or 'conception time' rather than actual birth. I think people tend to lean towrds Elladan as the eldest because of his name. 'Elf-man' would probably have been the first name Elrond and Celebrian thought of, Elrohir 'Elf-Knight' (or, my personal favorite 'Elf-Rider') would naturally be the second. If you want to get scientific, they would have to be exactly the same age because they are identical twins, not fraternal, meaning that they were origionally of the same egg, fertilized by the same sperm, they just seperated afterwards.

In other words, I don't know.

[Thuriniel]

[Andreth]

I don't know of any reference that says one was older than the other. I have no idea where EoA got that bit of information. It's a good place for info, but I've noticed some mistakes, so it doesn't hurt to double check things you find there.

[Rous]

Just my two cents worth, but I did read somewhere that Tolkien listed the sons of whosoever eldest to youngest. And it was pointed out that this was especially so for the few twins. It also stated that twins were actually one being with such a strong fea that it split before birth. And in every instance but I think one, one of the twins chose to remain immortal and one chose mortality (ie Elros and Elrond). It was almost as if the being that was conceived could not make up its mind. I do not entirely agree with this. Of course, I cannot give you references on this, and it may have been totally the author's opinion. It does seem to me that I got it from an essay posted somewhere, not one of the books. I have read different fics that give one as the eldest, and others list the other. If it does not matter, then pick.

[Thuriniel]

[Rous]

[Thuriniel]

[BittenBuggy]

Tis a very good point Maria, the ratio of a couple having twins to not having twins. Perhaps it was just a convieniant way to up the number of elven children? In my family, twins go back 4 generations then skip, then there are some more. So, as part of my family, it was destined to happen to me

All twins are traceable back to Finwe. You dont ever heard of Ingwe and Olwe having twins, now do you? But, seeings how all the cross-generation incest that actually occured, they probably did great-grandfather some twinkies

[Thuriniel]

Are you having twins BB? If that's the case, then double the congratulations !

And if not, well, double the congratulations anyways !

[Andreth]

You forgot about Thingol, BB. The only Elven twins I know of were Amrod and Amras, Feanor's sons. Then you have the three sets of half-Elven twins - Dior's sons (Thingol's grandsons) Elured and Elurin; Elwing (Dior's sister) and Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros; and Elrond's sons, of course. I've never seen any mention of Dior's sons being given a choice, so I was always curious what happened to them after they were left to die by Celegorm's servants. If they were counted among Mortals or Elves, or maybe given a choice in Mandos. I don't know. Elrond and Elros are the only twins who chose opposite fates. It never says what Elladan and Elrohir's choices were, only that they were delayed.

Am I forgetting any twins? I keep feeling like I've forgotten something...

[BittenBuggy]

[Rous]

If I remember correctly, the essay said something about twins dying when the Teleri were murdered prior to leaving Valinor. It went on to explain how one was destined to to survive, but then mentioned that both died, so what was the point. The author was surmising that one would pick the higher (?) road, and would leave one to take the lesser. It made little sense to me, and I choose to believe that twins were just twins. I may surf around tonight to see if I can find it again.

[Andreth]

Ahhh, okay. I know which ones you're talking about. Those are the full Elven twins, Feanor's sons, Amrod and Amras, and in the published Silm they both survived the voyage to Middle-earth. But in the drafts of the story in Morgoth's Ring one of the twins were still on the ships when Feanor set fire to them. His wife had warned Feanor before they left Valinor that one of his sons wouldn't make it to Middle-earth and she was the one who gave Amras the name Umbarto or 'Fated'. I would have been curious to see which version Professor Tolkien would have chosen to be in the published Silm. Probably the more angsty version.

[BittenBuggy]

I like that version better. Hope its in the Silm 2.

Anna - Hurrah for the Cirdan avatar! It has made its return!