[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor will officially begin on Monday 8/9.

Andreth/Anna will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Andreth]

I'm running late on getting this posted. Sorry, it's been a busy day and I haven't had a chance to sit down at the computer long enough to get anything typed up. Here goes.

We begin with the Valar being informed of Feanor's response to their offer of pardon. Manwe responds that Eru had told them evil deeds would result in a greater good. To which Mandos responds, "And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon." I think this response along with the statement that the Valar mourned the loss of the Trees no less than they mourned the marring of Feanor answers something brought up by Inglor in the earlier chapters. I take these things as an indication that Feanor wasn't crazy - he had a choice which path to follow and he chose the path lined with evil deeds and in so doing he was marred by the Shadow of Morgoth.

In the BoLt version, after the Kinslaying at Alqualonde Aule said that he never wanted to hear the name of the Noldor spoken again and afterwards he called the Noldor who had remained in Valinor 'Eldar'. After that no one in Valinor used the name Noldor again.

Mandos's statement also brings up another question for me: he's the one always making cryptic statements of what's yet to come, but it's said that out of all the Valar Ulmo is the one with the greatest knowledge of the Music and the things that will be. Even more knowledgeable than Manwe, yet Ulmo is the one we hear the least from and the one who is the least involved with the goings on in Valinor.

Then we come to the origins of the sun and the moon. This is the element of the tales that seemed to give Professor Tolkien more difficulty than any other part of his mythology. C. Tolkien says that his father had reached the point where he was ready to scrap all his previous ideas and start over again. Chris used the last draft his father had made of this part of the tale and did the best he could with it. Here in the Silm version the creation of the sun and moon is compressed to just over a page. In its Book of Lost Tales form it was 19 pages long and the Hiding of Valinor was a separate chapter. It's less confusing in the shortened form, but we lose a lot of the rich details of the descriptions and the behind-the-scenes story.

Back to the current version - Sitting in the darkness made the Valar recall those in Middle-earth who had been in darkness all this time with only the light of the stars. We're not given a really good sense of the amount of time that passes when all this is going on, so here's a timeline from Morgoth's Ring:

1495 - Darkening of the Trees
1496 - The Noldor take the Teleri ships and leave Valinor
1497 - Noldor reach the Helkaraxe. Feanor takes the ships, burns them and leaves the better part of the Noldor stranded on the ice.
1500 - The rising of the moon/ the stranded Noldor reach ME with the first rising of the moon

This timeline is in Valian years, one of which is equal to 9.5 Years of the Sun. So we have a period of about 47.5 years between the darkening of the Trees and the Rising of the Sun, which means the stranded Noldor spent about 27 years crossing the ice.

Now the Valar are thinking of the Elves left in ME, the Elves now returning to ME, and Men, whom they know will soon come. They worried most for Men because they were weaker in spirit and body than the Elves. So this time the Valar decided to make light for the entire world instead of just Valinor.

With great effort by Nienna and Yavanna, Laurelin produces a single gold fruit and Telperion a single silver flower. These are put into vessels made by Aule and set into the sky. At first they both traveled in the sky together, one starting at the West and one starting at the East, passing each other in the sky at the midpoint so that the mingling of the lights would once again be seen as it had been with the Trees. But nobody could see the stars and Lorien complained that sleep had been banished from Arda, so the travel of the sun and the moon was switched around to what it is now. Afterwards time was marked by the Years of the Sun.

Morgoth hates the new lights, but isn't brave enough to attack Arien so instead he attacks Tilion. In other versions of the story it's the other way around and Arien is the one who's attacked by Morgoth. He knocks her from the sky and the 'magic' and some of the radiance is lost from the sun. This was part of an earlier prophecy of 'The Rekindling of the Magic Sun' that Tolkien scrapped - that at the End of Times a battle would be fought to release Arien from the cave in which Moru (Ungoliant) had her bound. Then Arien would be released and the 'magic' sun rekindled, and the Two Trees would be relit.

But back to the Silm - Morgoth attacks Tilion and hurts him (hence the craters and marks on the face of the moon) and this worried the Valar. Now they feared that Morgoth might try to come back to Valinor again and pull another sneak attack, so they raised the Pelori Mountains even higher than before and made their sides smooth and impossible to scale.

Here we find out the curious fact that the Elves must at times breathe air from outside Valinor, air filled with the wind borne over the sea from the lands of their birth in ME. Does anyone have any ideas as to why this was? Maybe a sign that the Elves belonged in ME and not Valinor? Or did the heightening of the Pelori Mountains make the climate less suitable for them?

The Valar also set the Enchanted Isles and the Shadowy Seas in place and the sea was now rocky and dangerous to sail, shrouded in a mist that filled sailors with fatigue and an intense dislike of the sea. This was the scenario that Earenil had to sail through years later. At the end of this chapter it says that only one mariner passed through these obstacles - but that's not true. There was another. Anyone know who?

So now the Valar have closed Aman to the Exiled Noldor, but have given them help in ME in the form of the sun and the moon. And now with the coming of the Sun, the stage is set for the coming of Men.

[sindohte]

Okay, I think that I actually feel sorry for the fiery one. Reading about the grief of the Valar over the downfall of Feanor at the hands of Melkor is truly a tragedy on both a small and larger scale. As the text noted, Manwe had an inkling of all the wonderous works that would never be created due to the train to Crazytown that Feanor hopped on. And then there are the sons of Feanor and all of the Noldor who heeded the Noldo version of Jim Jones and lost their lives or the right to return to Valinor. I totally agree with Andreth that Feanor was given multiple opportunities to turn away from the doomed filled path he ultimately took.

I am glad to see that Tolkien ditched the whole "save the Sun princess" bunch of woohah.

Obviously I skipped over that bit about the Eldar in Valinor needing to breathe the sea air. It indicated to me that the true home for the repatriated Elves was back in ME. And didn't one of the Valar say that when the first of the Elves were brought over on the floating isle?

[Andreth]

Another thought I had that I forgot to add was what must it have been like for the people in ME at the first rising of the Sun? The first rising of the moon must have been wondrous for them, of course, but it's really like industrial-strength starlight. The sun, on the other hand, was this big burning ball of fire that lit all the corners of the lands that had been previously in shadows. Does anyone have any thoughts on what this must have been like for the people living in starlit Middle-earth?

[sindohte]

Folks who were of an evil inclination along the lines of Melkor, they would have been dismayed to know that they could no longer carry out their dirty deeds under cover of darkness. As for the rest of the people, I think the sight of what appeared to be an uncontrollable ball of flame hurtling across the sky would be enough to make them duck and run for cover. Yet as they began to realize that both the sun and moon had an orderly progression across the sky, the fear of the bright light would turn to wonder, followed by sunbathing, and then sunburn

[Elentari]

Have read the Silm Ages ago. But so I can kick something in this forum, which has not seem me in a while...

Feanor. While I shall stick with the duality theory in here, so that destruction is necessary- or at least complimentary/ consequential- to progress, The whole Feanor issue does not make me a whole bunch happy with our Mighty Protectors. Appart from the First battle (And later, after Earendil`s pleading, the second) with Melkor, the Valar strike me as some particularly lenient guardians.

It makes me wonder what the heck they did not do something. Actually reminds me of a certain White Council forth in ME... Setting Feanor apart was a mistake, letting his anger and resentment fester was another, and at the end just let him waltz into ME with a mighty army and one bloody doomed oath of reveng is not the wisest thing ever. Actually it was, I think, a series of mistakes that built up to the point it escalated out of control.

Feanor was the mightiest of all Noldor, that the Professor left explicit in his work. he says that only Galadriel rivaled with him, and that she- Galadriel, both feared and disliked her uncle. Am I the only one in here thinking that the valar, in all their supposed wisdom, left that guy slowly turn into the dark force (to use a SW phrasing)? And hey, Who were the ones that left not only Sauron, but Melkor and Sauron, one and then the other, free to bring chaos and destruction to the world?

Feanor befriended the maia later, but someone set the evil out of the cage, and it sure as hell did not start with the noldo.

Concerning Mado/Ulmo, We might make an effort and say that Mando could see the development of people`s actions, even if he was know quite as knowledgeable as his brother.

But heed: when the things got rough again, the Valar`s reaction was not to set out to destroy what evil they had unleashed, but lit up lanterns and rise their mountain walls higher. While it can be understood as a sign that we- ME, elves and Men, and then some- would have to fight and win our battles on our own, It makes the Powers loose some more points on my conception.

I do not think we could have digested the whole princess in the tower thing from Tolkien. The guy set for himself parameters too high. I am glad he rejected the idea later.

About the Sun`s first appearance- yeah,a little bit scared at first. Elves, that is- i seem to recall men woke up with/after the first raising of the sun. Might be mistaken. But if so they`d think that big ball of flame naturall, and not be too bothered about it, unless in too hot days or when they got the darn sunburns.

For the whole breathing issue, I am as clueless as the next person. But considering the Elves were born into ME I`d say they were meant to stay there, and the weariness that later plagued them was merely a byproduct of Melkor`s evil spread upon the earth, and the no insignificant weight of mando`s Doom on the Noldor, that ended up bringing grief upon all other clans of elves, to some extent of other. *hint Kinslayings*

I just read the name of the guy who reached Aman too... damn...

AElfwine. Damn you Andreth, that`s The Lost Road, and I had just returned the book. Had to pick it up again.

[Andreth]

Welcome back, Elentari! Good to see you again.

[Andreth]

Elentari brings up a good point about the behavior of the Valar. I thought the same thing before the later versions of HoMe came out. There's a section in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, where Tolkien expounds on 'motives in the Silmarillion' and here's what he has to say about the Valar:

"This appearance of selfish faineance in the Valar in the mythology as told is (though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think only an 'appearance', and one which we are apt to accept as the truth since we are all in some degree affected by the Shadow and the lies of their Enemy, the Calumniator. It has to be remembered that the 'mythology' is represented as being two stages removed from a true record: it is based first upon Elvish records and lore about the Valar and their own dealings with them; and these have reached us (fragmentarily) only through relics of Numenorean (human) traditions derived from the Eldar, in the earlier parts, though for later times supplemented by anthropocentric histories and tales. These, it is true, came down through the 'Faithful' and their descendants in Middle-earth, but could not altogether escape the darkning of the picture due to the hostility of the rebellious Numenoreans to the Valar.

Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise. The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Eldar King, assigning motives and findings faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come.... If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the re-establishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. "

Later it says: "The Valar fade and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more clearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. the last major effort, of this demiurgic kind made by the Valar was the raising up of the Pelori - but this was not a good act: it came near to countering Morgoth in his own way - apart from the element of selfishness in its object of preserving Aman as a blissful regoin to live in.

The Valar were like architects working with a plan 'passed' by the Government. They became less and less important (struturally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work - not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything - save by counsel)."

This passage contradicts other passages where Ulmo is the one said to have possessed the greatest knowledge, but it still gives us a little insight into what was going on with the Valar.

[Elentari]

[Anna]

I know I´m terribly late in posting in this thread, but I haven´t had the time to read this chapter and the next (Of Men) until today.

I know I´ve said it before, but....I love when you get all educational, Anna! Only problem is -- I´m not capable of adding anything of worth after your, along with Sind´s and Elentari´s, posts.

I must say, though, that I really liked this chapter. I thouroughly enjoyed the story about the Moon and the Sun. It´s so sweet that Tilion couldn´t stay away from Arien, even though she was 'terrible in the fullness of her splendour'!

There´s more in BoLT?! GAH, don´t have time to work, must stay at home reading!

About the Elves needing to breathe the outside air? I do think it´s because they belonged in ME. The Valar shouldn´t have brought them to Valinor. I wonder if the Valar didn´t , unwittingly, treat the Elves a bit....hmm, condescending (not the word I´m looking for, but too tired to think..). What I mean is, they found the Elves to be so very pretty and likeable that they (the Valar) wanted to have them near at all times, not thinking about whether it would be good or bad for the Elves. I don´t think they meant anything bad, it´s just that they wanted to keep the oh so lovely Elves to themselves.

Btw, thank you Anna, for giving the clueless-wannabe-geek that is yours truly the timeline and pointing out it´s in Valian years! 27 years on the Helkaraxe!

[Elentari]

That explains wonder elves dying from cold when that pretty piece of damnation named Legolas walked nearly untouched through the Caradhras path... Even elven resilience must have an end, methinks.

[Anna]

[Elentari]