[Ceana]

Wow! I just found this thread and have read all the posts. It makes me so happy to find a group who actually care that their OFC stay true and not slip into "Mary Sue Land." I know I still sweat bullets as I write my OFC, Ailsa, in Maedhros' End. I've based her mostly on my own daughter...so I hope she comes off as "real" as possible. Either that, or my kid IS a Mary Sue. OMG!

But I think that from what I've read in this thread, there aren't any traditional Mary Sues here. I, of course, don't mean the parodies.

Ceana

[Amlee]

Ok I have a questions for yall. I know in the books that Arwen doesn't have that much of a role, but in the movies she does and would have had a bigger role if things would have worked out.

My question is do you think that Arwen (in the movies) could have been the writer's Mary Sue?

[Moralanqua]

No.

If its canon. Its not a sue.

Besides, Tolkien wrote it all first and so anything that came after was an imitation.

[Thuriniel]

[Amlee]

[Thuriniel]

I have given this some thought, and I do believe that PJ's original idea of Arwen would've been a very annoying MarySue. Apparently Liv Tyler was the one to put her foot down and demand that her character be changed (I have my own theory on this ... she probably didn't want to break a nail playing with swords ).

I read an interview with Miranda Otto where she said that Eowyn's screen time had been expanded quite a bit because Arwen's character was changed to accomodate "canon-Arwen." When I read this I had for a moment the sickest feeling of Arwen being the one to kill the Witch-King ... who knows!

I wonder if PJ wasn't trying to make of Arwen another Luthien ... I don't think Luthien seemed like the kind of elf to let her loverboy go into battle all on his own. Where Beren went, Luthien followed, and it could be that PJ thought that since Luthien and Arwen are so much alike physically, why not having them be similar in character as well?

But, everything must be said ... I think that even though I find that movie Arwen could've been better developed without straying from canon, I think that in the end they were able to do a decent job with her character.

It still bothers me to see her in one movie saving Frodo, and in the next moping ...

[Amlee]

On the EE's interviews one of the writers talks about how they needed the love story between Aragorn and Arwen to be out there more. That Arwen saving Frodo was a way to do that. Which I can understand. In order for a film to make it in todays world. It has to have a love interest of some kind.

On another it goes on and shows Arwen at the battle of Helms Deep. With an interview by Liv where she says something like "They realized that Arwen the Warrior Princes wasn't going to work." But if they had of kept going like they did. I my opinion would have been a Mary Sue.

[Roisin]

I don't mind switching Arwen for Glorfindel in that scene, b/c I read that PJ thought it would be too much to introduce Glorfindel and then have him disappear for the rest of the movie. Makes sense.

Arwen at Helm's Deep would have been too much IMO. I could have done with less mopiness in the rest of the trilogy.

Roisin

[Ceana]

Does anyone think that Arwen cried just a little too much in the movie? I better change that to tears filling up her eyes and spilling down her cheeks kind of crying....not sobbing. I mean, it just seemed to me that she did it a lot....for an Elf that is.

Ceana

[Thuriniel]

I thought Arwen cried too much, moped too much, and wined too much. That's why I don't understand how she could be out in Ranger garb one moment and the next she's all teary eyed when Aragorn leaves Rivendell.

I do understand that introducing Glorfindel would've been a bit too much, and I must confess that the chase scene with Arwen followed by the Nazgul is one of my favorites of the three movies ... but I think that they should've given Arwen a bit more "spine" in the other two movies, just to make the transition between Arwen Warrior and canon-Arwen more believable and smooth.

Granted, don't send her to Helm's Deep, but just because she stays home that doesn't mean that she's going to be crying all the time. And don't get me started on the whole "Arwen's fate is tied to the fate of the Ring" ... that was lame (heavens, I never thought I would use this icon!).

I also think that PJ did a great disservice to the Aragorn/Arwen romance by having them both doubting their possibilities of a future together. Aragorn and Arwen's love never faltered, even with Lord Elrond's oposition to their relationship. I just wish that Arwen would've been portrayed as a stronger elf ... a mature elf ... an elf over 2000 years old!

The only moments you see any strength in her is in FotR. After that, she's a total mess ... a very beautiful mess, but a moping mess still. Sad.

[inglor]

Boo movie Arwen
Yay Glorfindel...

[Ceana]

[Eyborg]

Sorry I'm replying to this thread so late, but...

Thanks for all the comments on the hobbit names. I guess I'll keep the Isabella name for the time being... we'll see what happens after that.

But you know, I think Tolkien himself was pretty "liberal" when it comes to hobbit names. I mean, he uses names of Latin origin, like Estella (which is basically Spanish for "star" if I'm not mistaken) and Angelica. So I guess practically anything is possible, when hobbits are concerned...

BTW I was thinking... the name "Kali" always makes me think of the Indian goddess. Poor little Merry...

[GypsieRose]

Eyborg,

I just had a thought on the "Isabella" issue, which you're free to accept or reject--it is your story, after all! But as an alternate name, what about "Arabella"? It's not Hebrew-based or particularly religious as far as I can tell; I've tried looking up what it actually means and have found three different web sites with three different explanations of origin, so it seems obscure enough to be safe. And the "Ar-" at the beginning gives it a vaguely Sindarin feel which might go well with the Tookish fondness for high-sounding names.

But as I say, it's your choice and your story; just thought I'd toss that suggestion out in case you liked it!

--Rose

[Eyborg]

Arabella is a good name! Thanks! I'll keep it in mind.

BTW this is a story I'm working on right now... I'm writing it in Icelandic and it will probably be a bit long, so don't expect to see it very soon (although someday, I hope!) It's a story that happens in the Shire in the "future" (about 200 years or so after the Quest), and it's about the first female hobbit who becomes Thain of the Shire (by inheriting the title from her father). A bit A/U? Perhaps so, but I wanted to explore the idea, what if when the Thain died, there weren't any male heirs with the Tookish name to succeed him? Thus his daughter inherits the title.