[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Of the Return of the Noldor will officially begin on Tuesday 8/17 (I hope, but it depends on how quickly BB can post a chapter summary because this was a last minute request)

BB will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Andreth]

Sind, are we going to skip this chapter or does one of us need to do a summary on it since BB's dropped out of the Silm reading group? I could probably do a summary if you gave me a day or two.

[Anna]

She´s dropped out? Gah, what are we going to do about all of her chapters? Is it just the three of us now?

[Andreth]

Yup, just you and me and Sind, unless Sind can recruit someone else to help. If not, we'll have to rotate turns between the three of us. There's nine chapters left so that would mean three for each of us. Oh no, crap. I forgot about the Akallabeth and the Rings of Power and the Third Age. We'll probably have to split those up into sections to make them more manageable.

[Anna]

Ok, how about if I do Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin and Of Beren and Lúthien on September 6th?
Don´t have time to do Of Maeglin next week.

[sindohte]

Hey there my fellow Silm-whores Yes we need to figure out how to divvy up the remaining chapters now that the BB has left our little reading group for greener pastures... of the pumpkin patch I made excellent use of my down time today at work and managed to read all the way up to the Akallabeth. So I definitely should be able to tackle some additional chapters.

Andreth/Anna, that would definitely be awesome if you could pick up this chapter for us. I will put the word out and hopefully scare up another soul to join us in doing the remainder of the Silm.

[Andreth]

I will have it up tomorrow or the next day. I can do Maeglin next week. I like the sound of that.

Hopefully someone will join us in our Silm-whorishness. Otherwise the three of us will just plow through the rest of the book. Joy.

[sindohte]

Sheesh, the word "plowing" sounds so painful. Unless I was getting plowed by a hot Elf Like I said, I got a lot of reading done today. It was an easy read, except for the freakin' long chapter about Turin. I can understand why the poor soul went insane - his dang chapter was too long.

Really potential volunteers out there, the Silmarillion is an awesome book and we would love to have you join us

[Andreth]

Much belated summary on this chapter. I'm sorry I didn't get this up last night. My children are back in school and have reverted to carrier monkey status. Last week they brought me a respiratory virus and this week they bring me a stomach virus. I fully expect to contract ebola by next week and will crash and bleed out in front of all the shocked mothers at football practice. Okay, ignore me - I'm sleep deprived.

So Feanor and his crew arrive in Middle-earth. The Orcs see Feanor's hissy fit of burning the ships at Losgar and report it to Morgoth. Morgoth sends out a welcome party of Orcs and they attack the unprepared Noldor who were camped on the shores of the lake called Mithrim. Then we have the second battle of Beleriand, called Dagor-nuin-Giliath, Battle-under-stars.

But the Noldor beat them and the Orcs hightailed it back to Angband. Then shockingly enough (I know, hold your gasps of surprise) Feanor did a dumbass thing. Instead of regrouping his men, Feanor took off after the retreating Orcs so he could take on Morgoth.

Well, Morgoth snorted and sent the Balrogs out to deal with him. Feanor, alone and far away from the other Elves, was surrounded by the Balrogs. They beat him and whipped him, and not in a good way, then Gothmog came and knocked Feanor to the ground. His sons arrived in the nick of time to save him and they took him back to Mithrim, but they didn't make it even halfway back before Feanor told them to stop.

Being the good father that he was, Feanor used his dying breath to order his sons to carry on his precious oath and to avenge their father. Then he died and his fiery spirit incinerated his body and rose up into the air. And so Feanor died as he lived: a big ball of hot air. Now he has to stay in the Halls of Mandos until the end of time.

See, now I'll really prove that I'm sick and just highlight the important points of the chapter to keep it short, since it's such a long chapter.

***As the eldest son, Maedhros inherits his father's rule. Morgoth arranges a meeting and Maedhros is ambushed by Balrogs, taken back to Morgoth, and hung from the face of Thangorodrim by a steel band around his right wrist.

***The rest of the Noldor arrive in ME after crossing the Ice and are, understandably, pissed at the rest of the Noldor who stranded them.

***Fingon wants to do something to seal the breach and to help his old friend, so he goes to Thangorodrim and, with the help of Manwe's eagle Thorondor, saves Maedhros by cutting off his hand and flying him away from the mountain.

***Angrod goes to see his kinsman in Doriath, King Thingol, who isn't too happy about all these new Princes showing up in Beleriand. Thingol tells them 'you may stay in Beleriand, you may take the lands that I don't use, but stay out of my lands and out of my hair, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera....' which the other Noldor aren't particularly happy about. Especially Caranthir, who seems to have inherited the worst of his father's temper problems.

***Feanor's sons, Finarfin's sons, and Fingolfin split the lands up between them.

***Twenty years after they arrive in ME, the Noldor have a feast called the Mereth Aderthad or the Feast of Reuniting. (I wonder if the minstrels played that Peaches & Herb song?) Lots of Sindar attended, but Thingol sent Mablung and Daeron instead of attending himself.

***Thirty years later, Turgon and Finrod are sleeping by a river when Ulmo sends each of them a dream about finding a stronghold somewhere. Of course, each of them think that the little voice in their heads was talking only to them and nobody else so they don't mention to anyone. Finrod eventually tells Thingol and Thingol sends him to a deep gorge of the River Narog and the caves there. With the help of the Dwarves of Nogrod, Finrod makes Nargothrond there. Turgon heads for the hills of Nevrast to build a city like Tirion back in Valinor, and in the Vales of Sirion he builds Gondolin.

***Morgoth hears rumors that the lords of the Noldor are busy sightseeing instead of readying for war so he springs another surprise attack on them. But Fingolfin and Maedhros were very ready and they defeated Morgoth's forces. This was the third battle of Beleriand, called Dagor Aglareb, the Glorious Battle. The Noldor tighten their borders after this attack.

**A hundred years later Morgoth tried to pull another sneak attack on Fingolfin, but Fingolfin was ready and defeated him. This battle wasn't counted among the great battles.

**Another hundred years later Glaurung decides to go for a little joy ride over Beleriand, introducing the Elves to the Urloki, the fire-drakes of the North. The Elves were taken off guard by the dragon, but Fingon brought out his archers and chased Glaurung back. Then the Elves mistakenly thought, 'hey, that wasn't so hard' because they didn't realize that Glaurung was still immature and not even half-grown yet.

After Glaurung's defeat came the Long Peace, which lasted about two hundred years.

And that's all folks. Sorry, I tried to keep it short, but this was a hellalong chapter.

[Anna]

[sindohte]

Nah, it doesn't make you a geek at all m'dear And to make you laugh even more, this is what Tolkien should have done -

Gothmog - I'm going to beat you and not in a good way.

Feanor - Bring it on you big hot ball of fire!!! I'll kick your ass and send you back to your crispy fried master!!!

Gothmog - Okay Mr. Big Mouth, time for me to open up a fresh can of whupass. And guess what? It has YOUR name on it!!!

Feanor - Oh sh*t

[Anna]

[inglor]

Silmwhore

Nice reference to the King and I

This is going to ramble and be a little disjointed but this chapter gives me lots of what ifs and why's:

Something Occured to me, Feanor took on several Balrogs and he survived. He later died from his wounds but he still had to fight off several BalrogS. I don't think they were just using him for practice, they were trying to kill or capture him and he held them off, by himself, long enough for his sons to get there. Feanor must have been quite the badass

Do you think this was just a conveinent way of getting rid of Feanor? Similar to the way Gandalf dissapears right before it would be good for him to be around: Gandalf's leadership would have been good after Lorien as to what the Fellowship should do, and as a liason for the Dwarves in Mirkwood. If Feanor had survived, the Noldor might have taken it to Morgoth before he had dragons and what not. The fate of Beleriand might have been different. But life would have been very interesting for the first couple of centuries between him, Fingolfin and Thingol.
I know Feanor was ruthless but does anyone think he would have listened to reason?
Though Fingolfin was the accepted Noldor High King, it was only at Maedhros's good judgment (did I just use a Feanorian and "good judgment" in the same sentence ) Feanor was the undisputed proper king and Fingolfin had sworn to follow him. I think, had Feanor survived and Morgoth attacked, the Noldor would have forgotten ther infighting and banded together. I know Orodreth's future reluctance is contrary to this but that was after they had been given a few bloody noses. Like the Last Alliance, they would have set aside their differences and fought the common foe. Oropher had a lot against the Noldor but he still pitched in, alot.

Along the what if front:
Fingolfin rode up and knocked on Morgoth's door. If Thingol knew that so many Noldor were on the doorsteps of Thangorodrim, would he have sent help, that many Elves might have succeded. Think about it: All the great Elflords in one place, all that raw power focused in one spot. Luthien tore down a fortress by herself, imagine what the combined houses of Feanor(I believe they would have come running), Elwe, Finarfin, and Fingolfin could do. I know it is an extreme reach to get them together but with the Host of Fingolfin holding down a seige, I think Thingol would see an opportunity to end things once and for all. If they didn't actually get Morgoth, they could have destroyed his power base for a much longer time than 400 years.

More comments: This may contradict come of the above but...What did Feanor think he would do if he could get to Morgoth... "May I have my jewels back?" lets just say they do get through all the Orcses and Balrogs and Sauron and werewolves etc. then what does he do? Was Feanor so powerful that he could have challeged Morgoth? His little brother gave His Nastiness a good fight, could Feanor, the Greatest Noldo Ever have done worse?

I know this is a lot of what ifs but these are things that I hve thought about when reading this chapter.


Inglor

[sindohte]

Dang you Inglor You had to write a book about this chapter and since I need to head off to work in 15 minutes, I cannot reply to all of your points in great, lengthy detail. So here is the short version of my remarks -

You present a coherent argument for an alternative history of the Noldor in Arda and for Feanor. I think that Feanor would have been able to unite all of the Elves of ME under one banner and kick Morgoth's booty into the great beyond. He certainly had enough messianic tendencies that would make people, even if at times it was blindly, to follow what he said. However, Feanor's lust for the Silmarils would have still tripped him up and would have later destroyed any sort of continued alliance he would have established among the various kings and lords of the Eldar. As for the multiple Balrogs whomping on Feanor before he took his final licking? I do think that Morgoth was going for the overkill factor. He knew that Feanor was a worthy foe and likely could foresee what would happen if Feanor was not killed at that moment. While Fingolfin would have of course carried out the battle to overthrow Morgoth, he wouldn't have been motivated to do so out of a desire to reclaim the Silmarils. Since he didn't create the Silmarils like his brother did, Fingolfin would not be obsessed with getting his prized creations back. And because of this Fingolfin wouldn't be as strong of a foe as Feanor.

All right that wasn't bad for 6 minutes of typing More to add later tonight.

[ellie]

My two cents worth...

I don't think Feanor could have reunited the Noldor and the other elves again. I think everyone was way too hacked after the Helcaraxe to ever listen to him again. Even Feanor's own people were afraid of the followers of the other Houses and retreated to dwell across the lake from them when they first arrived in Endor. Turgon for example lost his wife in the crossing, so I know he'd never unite and he had some pretty kick a** lords following him. I see the point that they might have united in a unified attack, however, the curse would have interviened, I think, and kept them from working together as well as they could have otherwise.

I do agree that Feanor might have done more damage to Morgoth than Fingolfin being driven by grief, but then again, Fingolfin was the strongest and the most steadfast of the brothers. Feanor was fay when he fought against the balrogs and being fay can go a long way in keeping one from succombing to one's injuries. hmm

Early on, all elves united possibly could have defeated Morgoth's forces as his dragons and other creatures weren't in their prime yet, but it did require the interevention of the valar to actually subdue Morgoth himself.

Also on the subject of being fay, I don't think Feanor thought far enough ahead to plan for what he'd do to Morgoth. In addition to being fay, he was now king and that'll do a lot to inflate an ego.

Finarfin's my favorite of the brothers, so, oh welll...

Hope that all made sense. I think the kids are hunting for me, so I had to type fast.

Ellie