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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: Help!- Elvish Death, Rebirth and memory issues, among other |
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Okie dokie. I need to get this out of my system, and I need it quick.
We are aware that a few Elves come back from the halls of Mandos. Now, the insufferable little bunnies plaguing my mind are, as of now:
Was the rebirth granted to nearly every elf that happened to be felled in battle, and the Noldor in general were denied that because of their wicked deeds, or Mandos was somehow tightfisted in his grace?
Was Mandos really unaware of the place where men go, or what? I do recall he sent Beren back to life, and granted Tuor with the immortality of elves. So what? He was keeping his mouth shut so as not to have too many solicitors upon his door?
And how did Luthien know he could bring Beren back in the first place? Did Melian hint something before she could foresee her daughter would fall in love with a man? Or in spite of everythign she did to keep them apart, Melian wanted Luthien to know that just in case?
Are there any evidences on how an elf came back from Mandos? We do know that they held a great likeness to their former bodies.... (I guess, at least.... memory kinda tricky right now). How much of their former lives`s memories were retained? Did they come back as Elflings or as Adults?
Could anyone , also, translate 'what the hell you`re doing here?' to Sindarin? (I believe Green-tongue is a bit too much, specially given there are hardly any word recorded in it... pity.) |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Help!- Elvish Death, Rebirth and memory issues, among o |
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| Elentari wrote: | | Could anyone , also, translate 'what the hell you`re doing here?' to Sindarin? |
Man nedh Udun carach?
Actually: What in Hell are you doing here? I thought it flowed better.
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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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That was precious, Nancy. Thank you ever so much.
Also, I just remembered something. Bodies.
No, this is not a yummy conversation. I mean dead bodies.
I was just going through the Panic series (hoping fervently they will be picked up someday) And got to the part where the elf was brought back to the valley. There was a bit of a confusion (being dramatic) about that, because someone had pointed out that elven dead bodies disappear after they are felled.
However, I do remember quite clearly that in the Battle of the Five Armies there was a great deal of elven bodies dead on the ground. Are we to take the mystical HoME version or the more divulged Hobbit one? Are we up to yet another irritating Tolkiien inconsistency? like Legolas`s fear of caves (I had that one nicely explained to me once, saying Leggy would eb afraid of a dark unknown cave, but still...) |
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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The only Elf whose body disappeared without a trace after their death was Feanor's. Other than that, I think Elves leave a body behind when they die.
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abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
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Anna
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 548
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Glorfindel was buried, so there must have been a corpse left behind when he died.  |
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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you. That got one seriously nagging distraction off my mind.
But do you think Mandos holds the keys to Men`s afterlife dwellings as well? |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Help!- Elvish Death, Rebirth and memory issues, among o |
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| Elentari wrote: |
[i]Was the rebirth granted to nearly every elf that happened to be felled in battle, and the Noldor in general were denied that because of their wicked deeds, or Mandos was somehow tightfisted in his grace?
Are there any evidences on how an elf came back from Mandos? We do know that they held a great likeness to their former bodies.... (I guess, at least.... memory kinda tricky right now). How much of their former lives`s memories were retained? Did they come back as Elflings or as Adults?
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Tolkien toyed with the idea of Elves being reborn as children, but ran into too many problems with that method and so discarded it, IIRC. Here's how Tolkien describes Glorfindel's re-embodiment in Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings:
"When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwe granted him release. Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die within the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realms. Their death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the disembodiment of their spirits as an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this ‘restoration’ could be delayed by Manwe if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.
Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm. Manwe, however, was not bound by his own ordinances and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside when he saw fit. From what is said of Glorfindel the Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings it is evident that he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the Ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde.
More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. …… After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos and Manwe restored him. He then became again a living incarnate person but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had retained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. ….. Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice: Gondolin was destroyed and all his kin had perished and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living.”
Sorry for the long quote, but I prefer to provide them where I can and let people make up their own minds.
| Quote: | "Was Mandos really unaware of the place where men go, or what? I do recall he sent Beren back to life, and granted Tuor with the immortality of elves. So what? He was keeping his mouth shut so as not to have too many solicitors upon his door?
And how did Luthien know he could bring Beren back in the first place? Did Melian hint something before she could foresee her daughter would fall in love with a man? Or in spite of everythign she did to keep them apart, Melian wanted Luthien to know that just in case? |
To the best of my understanding only Eru knew where the spirits of Mortals went to after their deaths. From the different things I've read the spirits of both Mortals and Elves go to the Halls of Mandos, but kept separated, one side having no contact with the other. After a brief time the spirits of Mortals travel on to wherever they go beyond Arda. In the case of Beren, he refused to travel on and hung around the Halls, waiting for Luthien to arrive as she'd promised him she would when he died. Namo (Mandos) didn't make the decision in the case of Luthien and Beren - he didn't have that power. He took the case to Manwe and Manwe took counsel with Eru. Eru is the one who handed down the ultimate decision. Also, Namo didn't make the decision about Tuor. That was another decision made by Eru because he's the only one who can rescind the Gift of Men.
I don't think that Luthien knew Namo could do anything for her, other than bring her and Beren together in the Halls of Waiting. That was the limit of his power in this case.
| Quote: | | However, I do remember quite clearly that in the Battle of the Five Armies there was a great deal of elven bodies dead on the ground. Are we to take the mystical HoME version or the more divulged Hobbit one? Are we up to yet another irritating Tolkiien inconsistency? |
Here's what Tolkien says about the decomposition of Elven bodies: (From PoMe, footnotes to Last Writings):
"The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men. Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished."
A lot of people take this to mean that the Elven bodies just up and *poof* vanished, but like you pointed out, there were lots of bodies left behind after wars. I think it means that Elven bodies decomposed quickly, like maybe within weeks or months, without their spirit to support them. Maybe the older the Elf was the quicker their body would decompose? I don't know, but I don't think they just vanished into nothing the moment they died. (Except Feanor, like Sind pointed out.) |
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Jillian
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Nor did Fingolfin's body just vanish, I remember that one of the Eagles took his body off of Morgoth and took it to someone, wait was it to Fingon? who buried it.
Luthien found Beren mourning beside Finrod's dead body too. I think Feanor was an exception to the rule; in fact Tolkien states that his spirt was so fiery that it burned his flesh to ash when it departed his body. |
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Jillian
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Nor did Fingolfin's body just vanish, I remember that one of the Eagles took his body off of Morgoth and took it to someone, wait was it to Fingon? who buried it.
Luthien found Beren mourning beside Finrod's dead body too. I think Feanor was an exception to the rule; in fact Tolkien states that his spirt was so fiery that it burned his flesh to ash when it departed his body. |
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Lossefalme01
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hrm. Okay, sorry if I repeat any of the same questions, I've read all the replies already, but I want to see if I can straighten out this whole thing in my head because this is a very important part of my fanfic and I don't want to screw it up!
So. Eru is the ONLY one who can take away the Gift of Men (ie mortality), therefore for a mortal to become immortal they first would have to be special (after all it doesn't happen every day) and secondly Manwe would have to think them worthy of such a thing and then double check with Eru, who would then make the final decision, correct?
Secondly, I remember reading/hearing something about there being a "waiting" period between the time an elf dies and when they can be reborn. Has anyone else ever heard of this and can you tell me if it's true or not, and if it is, how long is it? I heard it was something like ten years or whatever, and then if the elf desires to be reborn they can be.
Thirdly, sooo... when an Elf is reborn, they're NOT children? I didn't really get a good answer from the quote provided, as far as I could tell being "reincarnated as a living being" could mean being born again as a child and growing up or just reappearing as an adult. Although to me, it would make more sense to have them be reborn as a child, being similiar in physical looks, and then grow up normally as an elf... however I did hear from somewhere that about the age of puberty (or after approx 100 years) a reborn elf will begin to remember their previous life, until they are able to practically remember everything. Has anyone else heard this? I just can't see how it would make sense for them to reappear as an adult, because where would the body come from, and would it be the same one they had before?
Fourthly, when elves are reborn, they are reborn in Valinor? Or can it be anywhere in Middle-Earth? Or do they start in Valinor and then can go back to Middle-Earth if they want, or are they stuck there in the Blessed Realm and can't ever leave anymore?
And finally (I think), since Elves and Men are seperated in the Halls of Mandos for a time before the spirits of men leave to go beyond... would elves have knowledge that the spirits of men don't go to the same place as theirs? I mean, take Aragorn and Arwen for example. When Aragorn dies his spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos and then leaves. When Arwen dies her spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos and then stays. Therefore, if the two kinds of spirits are seperated, then Aragorn and Arwen couldn't be together even in the Halls of Mandos, even if Aragorn hung around waiting for Arwen as Beren did Luthien. Would Arwen have known this, do you think? That she wouldn't be able to be with Aragorn in the Halls of Mandos? (Unless she asked Manwe to put them together as Luthien perhaps did.)
Oh, one more thing. Beren and Luthien were brought back to life, but they both had mortal lives then. Were they in the same bodies or do you think they had different ones? Also, do mortals have to die in order to receive immortal life, or how does that work, do you think? And then would they have the same body if they had died first or would they be reborn kind of like an elf?
AGH! Sorry for all the questions but this has been driving me mad for some time now and I was so happy to find this thread so I could ask some very knowledgable people! As I said this is a very important element in my fic and I want to get it down as accurately as possible!
THANKS everyone for your help! 
_________________
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, lots of questions. Don't worry about asking involved questions though - most of Tolkien's situations were pretty involved.  I'll do my best to answer them.
| Lossefalme01 wrote: | | So. Eru is the ONLY one who can take away the Gift of Men (ie mortality), therefore for a mortal to become immortal they first would have to be special (after all it doesn't happen every day) and secondly Manwe would have to think them worthy of such a thing and then double check with Eru, who would then make the final decision, correct? |
Yes, that's right. Eru was the only one with the power to change the Gift of Men, so in order for this to happen it would have to be something that Manwe would think was important enough to ask Eru about. And Manwe was the only Vala who had the power to speak directly to Eru. After the Valar became bound to Arda, anyway.
| Quote: | | Secondly, I remember reading/hearing something about there being a "waiting" period between the time an elf dies and when they can be reborn. Has anyone else ever heard of this and can you tell me if it's true or not, and if it is, how long is it? I heard it was something like ten years or whatever, and then if the elf desires to be reborn they can be. |
There's no set waiting period before re-housing. If there aren't any extenuating circumstances, like kinslaying or evil deeds, then it's up to Namo (Mandos) and the houseless Elf to decide how long they'll stay in the Halls of Mandos. If there are extenuating circumstances, then it's up to Manwe to decide. Then there's also the rider that the Elf has to want to be re-embodied. The Valar can't force a spirit to leave the Halls of Mandos if they don't want to.
| Quote: | | Thirdly, sooo... when an Elf is reborn, they're NOT children? I didn't really get a good answer from the quote provided, as far as I could tell being "reincarnated as a living being" could mean being born again as a child and growing up or just reappearing as an adult. Although to me, it would make more sense to have them be reborn as a child, being similiar in physical looks, and then grow up normally as an elf... however I did hear from somewhere that about the age of puberty (or after approx 100 years) a reborn elf will begin to remember their previous life, until they are able to practically remember everything. Has anyone else heard this? I just can't see how it would make sense for them to reappear as an adult, because where would the body come from, and would it be the same one they had before? |
No, when they're re-embodied they're not children. In the Book of Lost Tales and again in Morgoth's Ring in the essay called LACE Tolkien used the idea of the Elves being reborn as children. But during the course of the essay he asked himself questions, like how would this work for Elves who were married and wouldn't this be screwing new parents out of having children that were solely their own? There were numerous problems with the idea of the Elves being reborn as children and Tolkien could never find a way to reconcile those problems, so he abandoned the idea.
Later in Morgoth's Ring, at the end of the section called Arabeth Finrod Ah Andreth there's another essay called 'The Converse of Manwe and Eru and the later conception of Elvish reincarnation'. This is where he decides that Elves are rehoused in their former bodies as is instead of going through rebirth and another childhood. A footnote to the Arabeth says "The possibility of return to incarnate life through childbirth is no longer countenanced." Which meant it was no longer a possible theory. Another big flaw he found in the rebirth theory was that the Elven spirit was so attached to its body and for the body to be reborn via childbirth would be to create a different body and thus cause pain to the spirit.
It says: " 'The only solution,' he [Tolkien] decided in this discussion was the idea of the remaking in identical form of the hroa of the Dead in the manner declared by Eru in The Converse of Manwe and Eru: the fea retains a memory, an imprint, of its hroa, its 'former house', so powerful and precise that the reconstruction of an identical body can proceed from it."
So the Valar recreated an identical body from the memory of the houseless spirit. And the Elves are re-embodied with full memory of their former lives.
| Quote: | | Fourthly, when elves are reborn, they are reborn in Valinor? Or can it be anywhere in Middle-Earth? Or do they start in Valinor and then can go back to Middle-Earth if they want, or are they stuck there in the Blessed Realm and can't ever leave anymore? |
When an Elven spirit dies it's called to the Halls of Mandos. Only there can it be re-housed. Those who refuse the call of Mandos never receive another body and wander as houseless spirits, like ghosts. All re-housed Elves stay in Aman. They can't leave unless given express permission by the Valar. Glorfindel is the only one mentioned in the histories who was allowed to do this, and this was because of his great power and strength which would be useful in ME for the fight against Morgoth.
| Quote: | | And finally (I think), since Elves and Men are seperated in the Halls of Mandos for a time before the spirits of men leave to go beyond... would elves have knowledge that the spirits of men don't go to the same place as theirs? I mean, take Aragorn and Arwen for example. When Aragorn dies his spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos and then leaves. When Arwen dies her spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos and then stays. Therefore, if the two kinds of spirits are seperated, then Aragorn and Arwen couldn't be together even in the Halls of Mandos, even if Aragorn hung around waiting for Arwen as Beren did Luthien. Would Arwen have known this, do you think? That she wouldn't be able to be with Aragorn in the Halls of Mandos? (Unless she asked Manwe to put them together as Luthien perhaps did.) |
Elves already know that the spirits of Men go to a separate place in Mandos and then travel on to a different place. That's pretty much common knowledge among the Elves.
In the case of Arwen and Aragorn, Arwen's spirit would go to the Mortal's side, just like Aragorn's did. She chose to be mortal when she remained in Middle-earth after Elrond's departure. Her fate was forever sundered from that of the Eldar by her choice to remain.
If you're talking about what would have happened before Arwen made her choice, then yes, she would have known that she and Aragorn wouldn't be together in the Halls of Waiting.
| Quote: | | Oh, one more thing. Beren and Luthien were brought back to life, but they both had mortal lives then. Were they in the same bodies or do you think they had different ones? Also, do mortals have to die in order to receive immortal life, or how does that work, do you think? And then would they have the same body if they had died first or would they be reborn kind of like an elf? |
Tolkien specifically said that Beren and Luthien were re-embodied in bodies that were identical to the ones they had when they died. Luthien's body would have been decomposed by that time and Beren's was damaged badly enough for him to die, so their old bodies weren't of any use.
In the only case of a Mortal being counted among the Elves, a human named Tuor, Elrond's grandfather, he didn't die. He sailed to Aman with his wife, Idril, and there he was granted the life of the Eldar, which meant that his spirit was then counted among the Elves and bound to Arda until the end of time. Tolkien says that when Elrond and Elros made their choice and Elros chose to become human his body didn't change. It remained the same. The only thing that changed was his spirit - after a while it would weary and he would leave his body and go to wherever Eru sends Mortal souls to. His body remained exactly the same and so did Elrond's.
If a human died and for some great reason was allowed to come back it would be like the case with Beren and Luthien or with all other Elves - they would come back in the identical body they'd had before.
I hope that answers all your questions! Let me know if there was something I missed.
Anna |
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Lossefalme01
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! THANK YOU SO MUCH Andreth! You were VERY helpful, but as usual your answers made me think of just a few more questions! What I would actually like to do is give you my situation and see if it's even possible! (From your answers it seems like it kind of is and kind of isn't!) However, I would prefer not to put it all here in case any readers would happen to come across it. Would you mind if I sent you a PM with my other questions?
Thank you so very much though for answering these questions with such thorough detail! You've really helped to make things clearer for me and I think I can rest a little easier now! LOL. Just a last few ends to tie up and I'll be all set! Thanks A TON! I really appreciate it!
_________________
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome. PM me your idea and I'll take a look at it.  |
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Havetoist
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject: Rebirth....the new house or the old.... |
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| How odious would it be for a pair of elves in the Blessed Relms to offer to be surrogate parents? |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| You mean like surrogate parents to have a baby for another Elven couple? Or surrogate parents for a spirit to be reborn? |
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