[Andreth]

[Eyborg]

I guess it's because in English it's written Cali with a C, right? I mean the goddess name. In Icelandic we write it with a K.

Hmmm, History of Middle Earth... need to get that book someday. - Hey, that reminds me, I've often heard people talk about the Letters of JRR Tolkien; they're said to have a lot of info (esp. on the hobbits) in them. Is it one single book, or more than one? It seems very interesting...

[Anna]

It´s one book. I just bought it. Haven´t had the time to start reading it, though. Seems awfully promising!

[Eyborg]

[JaneDoe]

[Thuriniel]

[MoonRaven]

Sorry to be wandering in late on this but it's been a busy summer. This is a topic I have given a lot of thought to and I find I agree with many of the opinions presented here.

I still remember the first time I heard the term "Mary Sue"--many years ago. I was describing a "Star Wars" story I was writing to a penpal and when I told her about my OFC, she shot back, "Oh, you're writing a Mary Sue!" I had no idea what she was talking about but could tell from her tone that Mary Sue=No-No. And yes, she was right--my character bedded nearly every male in the SW universe before I lost interest in the tale and put it to one side.

My next foray into fan fiction was many years later and once again my OFC was summarily dismissed as a Mary Sue--by people who didn't even bother to read what I had written. In that particular fandom, *any* OFC was labelled a Mary Sue, regardless of the author's talent or intentions. Since my character in this instance was better developed as a human being, with foibles and flaws, I kept writing and working on my story, and eventually my work was published in a fanzine to some praise. Looking back now, I think the character could have used a bit more work but then, that's what experience is for.

The thing is, this experience left me with an interest in the Mary Sue/OFC dichotomy. I tend to write in the first-person and I like to write from the POV of an original female character who finds herself involved in the canon universe. I believe it is possible to write a good, solid, believable OFC and I tend to seek out fan fictions that feature OFCs in an effort to see what makes them work. When it is done well, this sort of character can allow those of us who aren't of Tolkien's world to participate in it and interact with his characters.

I think self-insertion is a natural, human reaction to a tale you enjoy and characters you love. You want to put yourself in their world and experience it with them. On the most basic level, I think this is why the fledgling fanfic writer almost invariably writes Mary Sues on his or her first few outings--and goes a long way in explaining ff.net. The beginner's typical Mary Sue is boring, underdeveloped and usually exists only to allow the author to play out her romantic fantasies with someone else's characters. Mary Sue is one-dimensional. An OFC needs to be both original and a character to engage my interest.

And as far as self-insertion goes, I agree that any good author puts something of themselves into their work. I believe that Miles Vorkosigan shares qualities with Lois McMaster Bujold, that Lazarus Long's personality is probably an idealized version of Robert Heinlein's and that Tolkien himself probably had personality traits in common with Gandalf and Bilbo, among others. A writer tends to put himself into his characters. This is what writers do--deliver their particular insight on the world through their characters--and when we find an author whose characters speak to us or appeal to us, we seek out more of their work because we like the way their characters think and we assume that an author's other characters will share similar traits. That's why we *have* favorite authors.

But it all comes down to skill and believability. The character has to appeal to us--not by being flawless but in the ways he or she is human. They have to be people who engage our emotions, make us care about them. Fan fiction adds the additional challenge of taking another author's universe as our playground and trying to keep it intact even as we use canon themes and characters to our own ends.

So I look upon writing OFC as a challenge and an exercise in characterization, one that I hope will make me a better writer in the long run.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. I have enjoyed reading this thread very much. Thanks!

[Moralanqua]

We aim to please! Its really great how were could discuss this touchy subject like adults. Pervy adults, but intelligent too!

[DarkElfChilde]

My first Lord of the Rings fic was on ff.net, and it was called Beyond Valor; got discouraged and dropped the story because of people calling it a Mary-Sue, but I'm not mad...that really did help me a lot. So, I shouldn't say that I became discouraged by those people. Maybe one day I will change the way I had that story going and post it on here. Learn as you go I guess, and that's a good thing in life. I actually feel like that I'm getting better at writing LotR fics-glad to find this place by the way (and I think I mentioned that before in another thread). Of course, I've been asking questions for my story, just in case...I don't want to do anything stupid even though there's no romance with Legolas involved in it...maybe a little, not sure. I'm babbling again...someone smack me.

[Moralanqua]

DarkElf - u need a nickname. All the newbies get one.

I hereby rename you "Twitch".

As for your fic, take a look back at this thread and try to aboid the things we listed as being indicators of crapfic. There are plenty of hot bods here at OSA who will help and support you at any time. Just as long as you dont write about Princess Lisa Silverlug Luthien Greenleaf and her pet Dragon names 'Sparky'...

[DarkElfChilde]

Twitch...? Hmmm, I like it, thanks.

[Moralanqua]

Sorry, hun. Leilana got the best nickname - shes 'Strip'...

[DarkElfChilde]

That's all right though. I think the name fits me, lol. -shifty eyes- I tend to twitch occasionally anyway.

Your friendly elf,

DarkElfChild

'Twitch'

Oh yeah...that's nice. Heh. I'm hyper at the moment...

[Scribe]

Twitch and Strip....?????

Good god...!

Anyway....er Twitch. Its a learning process. Those of us who really want to write well learn from our mistakes, it takes time and patience but it is possible to write an OFC as opposed to a Mary Sue. As someone who once wrote a V the series fan fic, which a character that was so wholly Mary Sue because at 16 every girl fights aliens.. , practice does make perfect. Having role models like Susan Sarandon and Jodie Foster, being exposed to the writings of Marion Bradley Zimmer and Colleen McCullough gave me an idea of what real women should be. These are women who to me anyway, glory being who they are and not giving a stuff about it or write characters who are the same. Real OFCs do not compete or try to outdo men, they are who are they and they take what place they have in their world and make it fit their purposes. So yeah, you could start out with the 16 year Resistance fighter....shudder and end up with some what like Melia of Eastering which I'm told by Mora fits the mold of an acceptable OFC.

It's just practice.

[Mitasova]

As usual, all the fun happened while I was away. But I'll dust off this abandoned thread to post a few thoughts of my own, though they'll be in venue that's a little different from a thread title: not MS vs OFC, but good OC vs bad OC.

It was repeated several times by various people that what makes an OC a good OC is believability and "human-ness" (or evf-ness, dwarf-ness etc., as the case may be). In a word: sympathy. That's what a reader should feel towards an OC (even an evil one). But not only that. My personal primary requirement toward a good OC (at least in a fic that is not a one-shot vignette) is: he/she should have a story of their own, must contribute to the main plot in some way. This is absolutely necessary. If you're writing an OC in a significant role, they must have. something. to. do. beside boinking a canon character (not that there's something wrong with that).

For example: in plasticChevy's "The Captain and the King", which is one of the top-class fics out there, there's an OFC, Gil. Is she a Sue? No. She's a well-drawn, believeable, solidly grounded character. Is she a good character? Imnsho, no. I was rereading the story recently, and wished that she would just please. go. away. She annoyed me to hiccups, for one simple reason: she has nothing to do here. Giving the amount of time that's given to her, I'd expect her to participate in the main plot somehow. That'd have been really, really easy to do, but alas. She mops the floor and snarks. That's just not good. I felt like she's taking the precious time away from far more important characters and events; rather then learn more about Halbarad's thoughts and motivations, for example, I was subjected to endless displays of Gil's temper. In a nutshell: if you want to write a good OFC, give her something to do.

Just my 2 roubles' worth.
==

Tanya