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Havetoist
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: Rebirth....the new house or the old.... |
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Andreth - for a reborn elf...sorry, I shouldn't be trying to do this at work...gets in the way (work does).
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Lossefalme01
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Andreth, I sent you a PM, just so you know, about my other questions... and I THOUGHT I had posted another question here, but now I see that it is not here! So something must have happened! Grr. Well, basically all I was asking was how can an elf choose to be mortal? What are the conditions? Because any elf can't just decide to be mortal, can they? And did any of the other elves in the elf/human pairings become mortal?
Thanks! 
_________________
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Rebirth....the new house or the old.... |
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| Havetoist wrote: | | Andreth - for a reborn elf...sorry, I shouldn't be trying to do this at work...gets in the way (work does). |
No problem. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you.
I don't think that would be too horribly odious. I like to use things that Tolkien abandoned sometimes, especially things from the Books of Lost Tales. I would just add an author's note saying that, yes, these ideas were abandoned by Tolkien, but you wanted to play around with them for your story. Then you don't have people correcting you for it and you can experiment in peace.  |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Lossefalme01 wrote: | Andreth, I sent you a PM, just so you know, about my other questions... and I THOUGHT I had posted another question here, but now I see that it is not here! So something must have happened! Grr. Well, basically all I was asking was how can an elf choose to be mortal? What are the conditions? Because any elf can't just decide to be mortal, can they? And did any of the other elves in the elf/human pairings become mortal?
Thanks! |
I don't know of any Elf choosing to become mortal. Luthien was half Elf/half Maia and Elros was Mortal/Elf/Maiar, as were Elrond's children. Those choices were special and I've seen it speculated that these choices had more to do with the Maiar blood than the half Elven/half Mortal. Earendil was the only true half Elf/Mortal to be given a choice and his was for a pretty good reason.
On the off chance that an Elf were allowed to become Mortal, I would assume that would also have to be ordained by Eru and would have to be for a very, very good reason. The Valar were given power over this in the choice of Elrond/Elros and their descendants only. |
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Lossefalme01
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | On the off chance that an Elf were allowed to become Mortal, I would assume that would also have to be ordained by Eru and would have to be for a very, very good reason. The Valar were given power over this in the choice of Elrond/Elros and their descendants only. |
I see. So, in that case, Arwen "choosing" to be mortal means that it wasn't really HER choice, but that the Valar/Eru thought her situation good enough to allow her to become mortal. Right? From what it sounds she just decided one day to be mortal, and I thought that seemed just a little too easy. 
| Quote: | | I don't think that would be too horribly odious. I like to use things that Tolkien abandoned sometimes, especially things from the Books of Lost Tales. I would just add an author's note saying that, yes, these ideas were abandoned by Tolkien, but you wanted to play around with them for your story. Then you don't have people correcting you for it and you can experiment in peace. |
Hrrrrmmmmm. You are talking of an elf being reborn as a child, right? Well, that might be useful to me then, because it can apply to one of the ideas I had for an ending to my fic! Except, I would still need the reborn one to leave Valinor and go to ME...  But still, at least now I have a little bit of hope, because in truth that was my favorite ending of the ones I have come up with so far!
_________________
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Lossefalme01 wrote: | | I see. So, in that case, Arwen "choosing" to be mortal means that it wasn't really HER choice, but that the Valar/Eru thought her situation good enough to allow her to become mortal. Right? From what it sounds she just decided one day to be mortal, and I thought that seemed just a little too easy. |
No, Arwen did get to choose. What happened was that Earendil and Elwing (Elrond's mother and father) sailed to Valinor and asked the Valar for help with people in Middle-earth. So because they couldn't return to MIddle-earth after being in Valinor, and because of their sacrifice, Earendil and Elwing were given the choice between Mortal and Eldar. Earendil wasn't really jazzed about becoming Eldar, but he chose that because his wife did. Otherwise he would have preferred to remain Mortal.
Elrond and Elros, their sons who had been left behind in Middle-earth, were also given a choice of fates. Elros chose mortal and all his descendants were mortal (although there are those who'll argue about that) and Elrond chose the Elves. With Elrond and Elros the Valar had the power to grant the Gift of Men, but not to take it away, so Elrond's children could still choose Mortality. Their choice would be made when Elrond sailed for Valinor - if they remained in Middle-earth without him they would become Mortal. If they sailed to Valinor with him, they'd be Elves. Arwen chose to stay with Aragorn and become Mortal. Arwen's brothers were given an extension on their choice after Elrond left for Valinor, and it never says what happened to them in the end.
I hope that makes a little more sense for you.
| Quote: | | Hrrrrmmmmm. You are talking of an elf being reborn as a child, right? Well, that might be useful to me then, because it can apply to one of the ideas I had for an ending to my fic! Except, I would still need the reborn one to leave Valinor and go to ME... But still, at least now I have a little bit of hope, because in truth that was my favorite ending of the ones I have come up with so far! |
I'm sorry, I haven't responded to your PM yet. I'll get to that this evening. But yes, just because something was abandoned doesn't mean you can't still use it - you should just make a note that Tolkien changed his mind about this later, but you still wanted to use it for your story.
I'll get back to you no later than tomorrow about your storyline. |
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Lossefalme01
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Do'h! I knew that about Arwen!  I mean, I knew she was descended from Earendil, I just didn't catch exactly what you meant by the DESCENDENTS of Elrond bit. But I understand it now! THANKS for clearing that up! And the bit about Elrohir and Elladan is VERY interesting!!!! .... hrm.... heh heh.
| Quote: | | I'm sorry, I haven't responded to your PM yet. I'll get to that this evening. But yes, just because something was abandoned doesn't mean you can't still use it - you should just make a note that Tolkien changed his mind about this later, but you still wanted to use it for your story. |
 YAY!!! That makes me happy... for now at least! LOL. Until I find the next thing wrong with my idea! HAHA. But at least this gives me a little bit more to work with! Whew!
| Quote: | | I'll get back to you no later than tomorrow about your storyline. |
No need to rush with that or anything, and don't feel bad! I'd be lying if I said I wasn't waiting anxiously for your thoughts on that storyline, but that's only because you give such GREAT and thoughtful and well informed answers to questions! LOL. But I do understand that (sometimes unfortunately) there's this thing called real life! Hee hee... so take your time with the PM, I'll wait as long as it takes cuz I know when you do get the time to look at it you'll be able to give some REALLY GOOD INFO!!!
THANKS so much for all your help!!!!!!
_________________
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. |
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