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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Elwing: Human or Elf? |
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| Amlee wrote: | | Ah and this adds to another question. Elladan and Elrohir didn't leave Middle Earth with Elrond. It has always been a question for people as to if the twins decided to counted among men or elves. I was under the impression they had to make their choice before Elrond left for the undying lands. But didn't have to leave when he did. So does your post mean that they wanted to be counted among men? |
In Letters of Tolkien, #153, pg 193, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice and remain for a while."
Some people speculate that this was so they could hang around with Arwen for a while, but nothing's ever said of what they ultimately decided to do. But yes, Elrond's children had only until he left for Valinor to make their choice. As long as he remained in Middle-earth, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen would have the life of the Eldar, but when Elrond left if they chose to remain behind in ME then they were Mortal. Although, as said above, Elrohir and Elladan were given an extension on their choice. |
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ellie
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Where I am now.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Haleth.
As for Dior, I think he was probably given the life of the Eldar since he married an elf. All of the half elven whose childhoods are described are said to have matured fast since Dior, Earendil, and Elwing all married and had kids by age 30(ish).
As for Elrond's sons, well considering the huge deal Tolkien made out of Arwen's choice and her going off with Elrond to talk before they parted forever and whatnot, I think that Tolkien would have said something of the parting of Elrond from his sons if the parting had been permanent and Elrond wouldn't have been the happy harper when he got to the Shire if he had just parted from his boys forever. (I think he was the one strumming a hand held harp when the party arrived in the Shire).
As for Mithrellas, she abandoned Imrazor and the kids and supposedly sailed to Valinor. Does this mean then that she did not forge that "bond" with him that elves forge with each other when they marry? Interesting. I've never considered it before.
Oh well, that's my two cents worth.
Ellie |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| ellie wrote: | | As for Dior, I think he was probably given the life of the Eldar since he married an elf. All of the half elven whose childhoods are described are said to have matured fast since Dior, Earendil, and Elwing all married and had kids by age 30(ish). |
Wouldn't that be an argument for their categorization among Men, not Elves? Morgoth's Ring goes over the physiological and spiritual development of young elves, and I interpreted it to mean that elven spirits and intellect are developed almost immediately but that their bodies take a lot longer than human bodies to reach full maturity. A 30-year-old elf is still a kid, whereas a 30-year-old human is certainly of reproductive age.
Am I interpreting this all wrong? (always likely...) |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Haleth wrote: | | So that explains Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros. It offers no explanation for Dior or for Elrond's children. |
On another thread in this forum, someone (Andreth?) posted a bit about the kiddos of Elrond. Apparently, they got a choice because their mom was of such important lineage. I guess Elros married down. |
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ellie
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Where I am now.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | ellie wrote: | | As for Dior, I think he was probably given the life of the Eldar since he married an elf. All of the half elven whose childhoods are described are said to have matured fast since Dior, Earendil, and Elwing all married and had kids by age 30(ish). |
Wouldn't that be an argument for their categorization among Men, not Elves? Morgoth's Ring goes over the physiological and spiritual development of young elves, and I interpreted it to mean that elven spirits and intellect are developed almost immediately but that their bodies take a lot longer than human bodies to reach full maturity. A 30-year-old elf is still a kid, whereas a 30-year-old human is certainly of reproductive age. |
Since they are genetically half of each race (or there abouts), who's to say that their maturation could not be the same as a mortal but that their longevity could go either way? It is the spirit that is in question and not the body as far as mortality for the half elvenis concerned (though yes, for elves the hroa and the fea are closely linked). Besides, given the events of the time, there was a need for rapid maturation of the half elven or none of them beyond Dior and Earendil would have had a chance to even be born. Perhaps it was written into the Music of the Ainur that the half eleven had to mature fast? That's my guess anyway.
Ellie |
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Amlee
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 370
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | ellie wrote: | | As for Dior, I think he was probably given the life of the Eldar since he married an elf. All of the half elven whose childhoods are described are said to have matured fast since Dior, Earendil, and Elwing all married and had kids by age 30(ish). |
Wouldn't that be an argument for their categorization among Men, not Elves? Morgoth's Ring goes over the physiological and spiritual development of young elves, and I interpreted it to mean that elven spirits and intellect are developed almost immediately but that their bodies take a lot longer than human bodies to reach full maturity. A 30-year-old elf is still a kid, whereas a 30-year-old human is certainly of reproductive age.
Am I interpreting this all wrong? (always likely...) |
When I read this last night the first thing that came to mind was that I thought Elves didn't mature body wise until the age of 50. So the age of 30 would still be young as in pre-teen age. |
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Viv
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Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I've been writing these characters as sort of "best of both worlds." That is, since they didn't have to make choices, they weren't really either. They were, as Elrond describes himself, half-elven. In Elrond's case, it's almost as if this half-elven thing is a completely new race with new rules. Parts obviously are elvenesque, and parts are humanesque, but the result is unique.
My opinon is that ficwriters can take from that whatever they will, as long as they explain their thinking. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | Wouldn't that be an argument for their categorization among Men, not Elves? Morgoth's Ring goes over the physiological and spiritual development of young elves, and I interpreted it to mean that elven spirits and intellect are developed almost immediately but that their bodies take a lot longer than human bodies to reach full maturity. A 30-year-old elf is still a kid, whereas a 30-year-old human is certainly of reproductive age.
Am I interpreting this all wrong? (always likely...) |
No, you're right. The Half-elven seem to mature at a rate more comparable to Mortals but then are very long lived. Too bad we never got to find out exactly how long lived they would have been.
| Quote: | I've been writing these characters as sort of "best of both worlds." That is, since they didn't have to make choices, they weren't really either. They were, as Elrond describes himself, half-elven. In Elrond's case, it's almost as if this half-elven thing is a completely new race with new rules. Parts obviously are elvenesque, and parts are humanesque, but the result is unique.
My opinon is that ficwriters can take from that whatever they will, as long as they explain their thinking. |
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Tolkien calls them the Children of Luthien (I think he also referred to Elrond as this in The Hobbit) and the Half-elven were clearly completely different from anyone else. Even more so in Luthien's descendants because of the Maiar blood they carried. We don't know what the fate of the Half-Elven before Earendil and Elwing was and we don't know exactly what traits they inherited from what side. It's all up for interpretation. |
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