[Amlee]

I was reading a fan fiction and a line in the story caught my attention so I have to ask this.

If an elf has sailed west and reached the Undying Lands can said elf return to Middle Earth? I know some think that Glorfindal returned. Also Cirdan went back and forth taking the elves. But I have never heard of one being talked about that sailed west and then returned to live.

Any thoughts on this?

[Viv]

I don't know of any elves sailing west and then coming back. Galadriel is the only freak I can think of who wanted to come to Middle-earth for Middle-earth's sake, i.e., not chasing after shinies. Oh, and her brother, too. Came to Middle-earth for other reasons, I mean.

I do so love Galadriel.

And Glorfindel didn't exactly sail west and return. He died a flaming death in Middle-earth, went all disembodied to Mandos, and then returned. Maybe it wasn't his time to sail west.

I think there's something in the Silm about how weird it was for elves to want to go east in the first place. Didn't the Valar get quite pissy over the idea? I'm in the middle of something and can't look it up right now, and my memory, of course, is Swiss Cheese.

[Haleth]

The Vanyar and the tenth of the Noldor that remained in Aman sailed east to fight the War of Wrath. Maybe one of them remained in ME from then?

[Thuriniel]

Could it be that rather than not being able to return East they just didn't want to leave West?

If we think about it ... the Elves were living with the Valar themselves ... they beheld the light of the Trees of Valinor. It sounds to me almost like being in Mount Olympus with the Gods or in the Garden of Eden. Why would you want to go back to the dark, gloomy reality of an imperfect world?

... just a thought.

[Rous]

"Could it be that rather than not being able to return East they just didn't want to leave West?

If we think about it ... the Elves were living with the Valar themselves ... they beheld the light of the Trees of Valinor. It sounds to me almost like being in Mount Olympus with the Gods or in the Garden of Eden. Why would you want to go back to the dark, gloomy reality of an imperfect world?"

Perfection does have its drawbacks. For instance, boredom?

[Thuriniel]

But we're talking about Elves, not humans. Elves dig perfection, and, quite honestly, I would say that canon Elves tend to be in the "boring" side.

Humans are more curious and they live their lives more intensely because their time on this Earth is limited. I can just see them being bored in the midst of perfection. Adam and Eve apparently did.

[Rous]

[Amlee]

With Cirdan and his elfs being able to go back and forth it would seem to me that an elf could come back if he or she wanted to.

[Rous]

And the Nodor did not even use Cirdan's boats. They said though the sea to the north, then went across the ice. But maybe that way was closed later. I seem to remember something along those lines.

[Andreth]

It all depends on when they left Valinor.

After the 'Change of the World' brought about by the destruction of Numenor "no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. (PoMe, Last Writings pg 381) The Silm says that 'all roads were now bent', which means that Valinor/Aman was no longer part of the physical world.

Before the destruction of the Two Trees anyone could sail West and eventually reach Aman. It was actually physically there. But after the destruction of the Trees the Valar worried that Morgoth might come back or send spies back, so they raised the Pelori Mountains and set the Shadowy Seas in place. But even then there was the rare chance that someone could find their way through to Valinor, like Earendil did and the occasional mariner.

After the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, Beleriand was destroyed and so was the section of the Helcaraxe that part of the Noldor crossed on. So that physical bridge was removed also.

After the destruction of Numenor Aman was completely inaccessible by any way other than the Straight Road and this could only be found by Elvish mariners in Elvish ships. Cirdan was obviously a special exception, but then he'd been serving the Valar since the time of the Elvish migration to Valinor when Ulmo asked Cirdan to remain in Middle-earth and serve the will of the Valar.

So whether or not an Elf could come back from Valinor would all depend on when they were traveling. From the end of the Second Age on, it wouldn't have happened without the Valar's special permission.

[Andreth]

No, Valinor isn't the equivalent of heaven. It's merely the dwelling place of the Valar, who are only servants of the one God, Eru. It's very beautiful and I don't think it would be boring at all. It definitely wasn't perfect. At the time they constructed it, the Valar were trying to make a place free from Morgoth's Shadow but they didn't realize then that Morgoth's Shadow was *everywhere* in Middle-earth. It was actually part of Middle-earth and you couldn't escape it. They figured that out later after the deal with the Two Trees and the Kinslaying. Actually they started figuring it out when Feanor's mother, Miriel died and didn't want to come back.

Galadriel wanted to go to Middle-earth for the same reason a lot of the other Noldor wanted to go. (other than the Silmaril-crazy ones) She did want to see the wide open spaces of Middle-earth and the lands, but more importantly she wanted a place where she could set up her own realm. A place where she could be the teacher and not the student, as she was in Valinor. In Valinor the Elves were the lesser beings compared to the Ainur, but in Middle-earth the Elves were the powerful and wise ones. They were the ones who were looked at in awe by the inhabitants in Middle-earth - even the Sindar were awed by the Noldor when they arrived.

So I would say it wasn't boredom that led the Elves to want to leave Valinor in so much as it was ambition and maybe a touch of pride.

[slydog]

As far as my memory serves me (and that should discredit this reply then and there) Cirdan made ships that went into the west but he did not actually go with them. ever. Its written somewhre that he could actually still be here in ME waiting for the last elves to take ship. Hes never seen the aman. i believe tolkiens version of glorfindels return from aman rather than his other explination of a similarly named elf. there is discussion whether glorfindel came during the second or third ages.
if he came in the third age with olorin/gandalf then maybe he and a few other elves were sent to ME as additional emmissaries of the valar. I forget whether he was sent back to aid elrond or gilgalad.
if the elves could visit numenor during the second age, couldnt they visit the rest of middle earth?
after the Change in the seconda age i think (except for very special cases such as bumming a ride with gandalf) that no elves could return to ME.
if they could simply turn around and come back why would the parting of elrond and arwen have been so sad?