[Andreth]

Don't worry, the whole 'Arwen is the last Elf born' idea is a fanon. Tolkien never says anywhere that Arwen is the last of the Elves.

A few major points on that:

1) If we knew for certain that Arwen was the last Elf born then we'd have some kind of clue as to that great mystery of Legolas's age, and you'd better believe that people would be using that as a marker for his age.

2) People base this idea of her being the last Elf on her name 'Undomiel' or Evenstar. Mother names did have specific meanings according to Tolkien, but naming her after the Evenstar didn't mean she was the last of anything. The Elves held great reverence for the stars and for their creator, Varda. People try to say that since Luthien was called Tindomiel, referring to the time of twilight before the dawn, that Arwen's name referring to the time of twilight just after dusk has some dire meaning of the 'night' coming for the Elves. The night wasn't the end for the Elves - it was their beginning and the time in the world when they were most happy. The coming of the Sun heralded the coming of Men and the beginning of the end for the Elves. The Elves didn't view the night as some kind of ending or a time of darkness, but as a time that was dear to them when they could see the creations of Varda that they held in such deep reverence.

3) Third and most important, ARWEN WASN'T AN ELF. She was Half-elven and they're a completely different race. Tolkien calls them the Children of Luthien. There were other Half-elves, like the children of Mithrellas and Imrazor in Dol Amroth, but there were no other Half-elves in Middle-earth who had that Maiar blood mixed in with it, except those of Elrond's line.

It's possible that there might be meaning that Arwen was the last of the Children of Luthien to be born in Middle-earth, but then what about Eldarion and Arwen's daughters? What about Elrohir and Elladan? It never says what they chose or whether or not they had any children in Middle-earth after the War of the Ring.

So you're safe to have Elves being born after Arwen. There's nothing at all to prove otherwise.

And on the Elven couples ending their childbearing years - I know there are those who interpret it differently and that's cool, but I read LACE to say that after a while married Elven couples lost the desire *to have children*, not the desire to have sex. Thought I'd throw that out there, too.

[Rous]

[inglor]

There is no telling how old Celeborn was when he and Galadriel had children and she was a few thousand years old (I think close to 2000)

Just my opinion, but given the perfect health of the Eldar, I doubt that the ability ever diminished

Inglor

[Andreth]

[Rous]

Thank you, Andreth. The last part I had read in the copy of the LACE that sindhote sent me. While very helpful, it does leave quite a few holes. I know that 3000 is not ancient. Elrond was around 3500 when the twins were born, was he not? And while I am not sure how old Celebrian is, I read somewhere that Galadriel was closing in on 7000 herself.
Now, while I still have your attention, do you have any idea where I would find info on the Avari? Is there anything written, or is it virgin territory? I have a plot running rampant in my head, and I would like to persue it. I read that they refused the summons, and I think I read that nothing more was known of them. Am I right? If not, can you direct me to the information?
Thanks, again.
Rous

[Lossefalme01]

Andreth,

You said:

[Rous]

Okay, now I am confused.

Quote:
For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable.

What does that mean, exactly?

Rous

[Andreth]

Oh my god, you even confused me.

First thing before I forget - Rous, you're in virgin territory with the Avari. There's some stuff in the Silm and the corresponding volumes of HoMe, but it's very scanty. I'll look through later and see if I can find any specifics about them, but I wouldn't hold my breath. That group of Elves is pretty much fair game for the creative process.

Okay, now back to the confusing part. Rous again -

[i] Quote:
For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable.

What does that mean, exactly?[\i]

That means that once they lose the desire to have children, they no longer are capable of conception. Some people take this to mean that the Elves could conceive at will, which is definitely one plausible route. The other would be that both the males and females go into some kind of menopause, where they're just no longer fertile.

[quote="Lossefalme01"]And now I'm a little confused! Let me see if I can sort this out.... from what it says in LACE, it sounds like Elves can have children whenever they want, and their WILL to have children is actually what makes them have children. As in, Elves don't need contraceptives because if the WILL to have children isn't there then the child won't be created. Is that what it means?

Also, you said you believe that even though they lost the will to have children, they still had sex, but from that last part in LACE it sounds like they lose the desire to have sex as well, and go one to pursue other functions of body and mind. But then you say that LACE could be looked on more for peripherial reference... so is that why you say that about Elves still having sex while not still having children?[\quote]

You're right on the second half of the first paragraph - if the Elves don't have the will to have children they wouldn't need contraceptives because they would no longer be capable of reproduction. They could have children whenever they wanted, up until the loss of that will, which came with exercising the ability of procreation and/or advanced age. Whether or not they were able to conceive at will or whether their conceptions were hit or miss like with Mortals is a matter of interpretation.

As for the second half of your question, no - I think the Elves continued to have sex because that's the way I interpret the paragraph to read. There are some of us who interpret it as merely the desire to have children fading, and there are those who think that both the desire for having children and for having sex left. There's not really a right or wrong there. It's all a matter of personal opinion as to which one suits the reader better.

I'll explain my reasoning for interpreting it that way though. Here's the quote you gave earlier, including the sentence just preceeding it, which is important.

[i]"Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things. The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the 'days of the children', as they call them, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfill. "[\i]

Tolkien is talking about the will and the desire for generation being satisfied, and the desire for generation ceasing once the power is exercised, then the mind turns to other things *besides generation*. That's what he's discussing in this paragraph - the loss of the desire to procreate. He specifically says that 'the union of love *is* indeed to them a great delight and joy' and then says their childbearing days remain a fond memory, then referring to the 'other powers of body and mind', and again, the power being discussed in this paragraph is the power of generation.

I see it as saying that they still delight in the union of love, but their minds move on to other things besides childbearing. Like with human couples - when our childbearing years end (not necessarily physically ending, but for most of us when our children start to get older and we don't have the desire to have any more children) then our priorities rearrange and our minds start to turn to different things. This doesn't mean we stop having sex, it just means that our mindset has changed from the desire to have children to the desire to pursue more selfish pursuits, if you will.

It also means that if you follow the idea of Elves being able to conceive at will, that Galadriel and Celeborn had sex like one time and Elrond and Celebrian had sex twice. Feanor would have been the Poon-tang Daddy getting laid a grand total of six times. After reading the Silm and all the HoMe volumes, I have a hard time seeing the Elves as these Vulcan-like creatures so many people view them as.

To be fair, on the opposite side of the debate, the references in the paragraph prior to this one of "their changes of desire and thought" and "the impulses and moods of their bodies change" have been interpreted to mean that their impulses and desires for sex changed as they got older, too, and went AWOL along with the desire to have children.

Like I said before, there's not a right or wrong in this situation and we're never going to know exactly what Tolkien meant by this. I think both interpretations have validity. It's just a matter of which one suits the individual better.

[Rous]

[quote="Andreth"]Oh my god, you even confused me.

First thing before I forget - Rous, you're in virgin territory with the Avari. There's some stuff in the Silm and the corresponding volumes of HoMe, but it's very scanty. I'll look through later and see if I can find any specifics about them, but I wouldn't hold my breath. That group of Elves is pretty much fair game for the creative process.

Okay, now back to the confusing part. Rous again -

[i] Quote:
For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable.

What does that mean, exactly?[\i]

That means that once they lose the desire to have children, they no longer are capable of conception. Some people take this to mean that the Elves could conceive at will, which is definitely one plausible route. The other would be that both the males and females go into some kind of menopause, where they're just no longer fertile.

Yea, the little plot bunny nibbling on my toes will be happy to hear that. It was just a story popping out of a humongous fit of depression. Ha! Depression gone, but story idea remains. On to find out about these Avari.

I do not like the conceive at will thingy. Sorry. It takes all the fun out of trying. Maybe they just could prevent it until ready. Oh, yeah, I like that idea much better. And since I am dealing with a character of mixed bloodlines, we can muddy the waters just a little. Thank you, very much. You have been a great help to me.
Rous

[Thuriniel]

[Andreth]

I agree with you. Legolas seemed like quite the smartass in the books, so much that I thought Gandalf might paddle him on Caradharas. He seems to be very expressive of his emotions, and with a good sense of humor and an appreciation of good wine, from his comments at Isengard.

I can't see all the drunk, happy, singing Elves of Rivendell (or the drunk and passed-out Elves of Mirkwood ) as these uptight, emotionally chill people. In Mirkwood Thranduil and his people were having these impromptou buffets out in the middle of the forest, and having a good time from the sound of it. I know that some Elves faded and grew unhappy and depressed over time, but I can't see the whole race of Elves as being like that.