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The Hobbit Reading Group - Over Hill and Under Hill

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artanisoflorien



Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:46 am    Post subject: The Hobbit Reading Group - Over Hill and Under Hill Reply with quote

Ummm...were we supposed to begin discussion today on this chapter? I'm the discussion leader this time, and I'm ready to go, so should I just go ahead and post my summary and thoughts?
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sindohte



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes sorry about that Embarassed I got busy with errands before I ran out of the house this morning and forgot to start the thread. Please get us started off Very Happy
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artanisoflorien



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh good! I was afraid I'd missed something.

This is my first attempt at anything like this, and it's been a long, looooong time since my lit classes in college, so bear with me. Here we go.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Over Hill and Under Hill

The chapter begins with the group departing Rivendell and setting off into the mountains. Thanks to Elrond's advice and Gandalf's knowledge of the area, they find the right path, rather than falling victim to the many "cheats and deceptions."

They endure a seemingly endless climb. They have an unobstructed view to the West, across the lands from which they've traveled, and again, Bilbo longs for home. As they continue upward, they face cold, wind, and falling rocks which make for a very unpleasant journey. They travel mostly without conversation as they are disturbed by odd echoes and the fact that the "silence seemed to dislike being broken."

Bilbo begins to dwell on what he's missing at home and becomes discouraged by the passage of time. The dwarves are in a similar state. Gandalf alone, seems to be focused on the present and the danger and evil he knows is prevalent. In wizard-like fashion, he is expecting the unexpected, and he is proved correct when they encounter a violent storm.

Tolkien describes this storm in vivid detail (it's one of my favorite passages in any of his writings). He calls it a "thunder-battle" and says that it is comprised of two storms, one from the West and one from the East making war together. Even more dreadful, the lightning illuminates stone giants hurling boulders at one another and down the mountain for sport. The wind howls, the rain pours down, the giants continue their brutal game, and it doesn't take long before the whole lot…dwarves, ponies, hobbit, and wizard…are soaked and thoroughly miserable.

Thorin expresses alarm over their situation and Gandalf replies rather grumpily that if he knows of a better place to be, to take them there. After a bit of an argument, they decide to send Fili and Kili to scout for better shelter. They return quickly declaring that they've found a cave.

Gandalf expresses concern over the safety of the cave, and his is not alone in knowing that, despite Kili and Fili's assurances they've searched it, they were not gone long enough to have been very thorough about it. But rather than remain in misery, they decide to change location. In no time, they've managed to get the whole lot into the cozy space.

Just to be safe, Gandalf lights his wand and they search the area carefully. It seems harmless enough, so they settle in for the evening. They spread out their wet clothes, change into dry ones, and begin to blow smoke rings and discuss how each plans to spend his share of the treasure. Before long, they all fall fast asleep.

Then, Bilbo again proves his worth as things go awry. He is restless and dreaming that a crack has opened in their cave and that he is falling, when he awakes to find that part of his dream is true. A crack has opened in the cave wall and he calls out as he sees the last of the ponies disappearing into the opening.

Unfortunately, his cry comes too late for the dwarves who are caught completely unaware by a host of goblins. However, he does manage to alert Gandalf in time, and the wizard works some magic that causes a flash, a smell of gunpowder, and several dead goblins.

At that, the crack snaps shut, and Bilbo and the dwarves are taken captive by the goblins. The goblins carry them down into inky darkness, and again, Bilbo wishes for home. Soon, a red glow appears ahead, and the goblins begin to drive Bilbo and the dwarves ahead of them with whips while singing an evil song. Finally, they all stumble into a large cavern filled with many more goblins.

Torches on the walls and a red fire in the center light the cavern. When the host of goblins sees the captives, they begin cheering, leering, and clapping. The goblins plunder the ponies and the packs as the captives are taken before the Great Goblin.

Here Tolkien takes a moment to discuss the nature of goblins. He calls them cruel, wicked, and black hearted. "They make no beautiful things, but many clever ones." He indicates they are responsible for creating cruel weapons, including those designed to kill large numbers of people, instruments of torture, and "machines that have since troubled the world." He also indicates that they are fascinated by wheels, engines, and explosions, and they work with their hands as little as possible. These particular goblins do not hate dwarves as a general rule, and in fact have made alliances with evil dwarves in the past. But they do despise Thorin's people due to the war.

The Great Goblin quizzes them about their purpose in the mountains. Thorin replies politely enough considering the Great Goblin has made it clear his answers are of no consequence. He already knows he hates Thorin and company. Thorin gives a false story about visiting relatives, but their captors accuse him of lying, citing Gandalf's actions when they were "invited to come below" and pointing out Thorin's sword, Orcrist, or Biter.

The Great Goblin recognizes the sword immediately and flies into a rage, attacking Thorin. At that moment, the torches go out and the fire in the center of the cavern explodes in a column of blue glowing smoke. Chaos ensues and, "Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive together would not have compared with it." A blue sword appears, illuminated by its own light, and the Great Goblin is slain. Then, a voice commands the dwarves and Bilbo to flee, and Bilbo finds himself running along at the end of the line of dwarves.

Dori picks up Bilbo and they run to the heart of the mountain. There, Gandalf reveals himself and lights his wand. He has retrieved Thorin's sword, which he returns to the dwarf, and his own sword, Glamdring, or Beater, is glowing from having killed the Great Goblin. The dwarves wonder how Gandalf got there, but they don't ask. "Gandalf thought of most things; and though he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight corner."

After a quick head count, they take off running once again with the goblins in pursuit. The dwarves take turns carrying Bilbo as his short legs prevent him from keeping up with their rapid pace. However, the goblins are faster and more familiar with the caves and passages, so soon, red torches are visible behind them. And they are growing tired.

Gandalf and Thorin make a stand, wielding Biter and Beater against the goblins and succeeding in driving them back temporarily. It is long enough for the other dwarves and Bilbo to flee. Not wishing to face the two weapons and their bearers head on again, the goblins take a more stealthy approach. They sneak up on them, and all...dwarves, Bilbo, and Gandalf...are caught unaware. Dori and Bilbo, both in the rear, are grabbed, and Bilbo falls. The chapter concludes as Bilbo strikes his head, loses consciousness, and rolls off into the darkness.
+++++++++++++++

Whew! Looking back, my summary is nearly as long as the chapter. Rolling Eyes Sorry!

Here are my thoughts. This chapter contains two of my favorite scenes.

1. The description of the storm. Every time I'm in a thunderstorm, I think of this. It's such a vivid word painting. Bow

2. The description of the nature of the goblins. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think that Tolkien sums up all he thinks is wrong with the world in his description of the goblins…fascination with machinery, destruction, and the easy way of doing things.

Anyway, that's it. So, Sindohte, was this ok?
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Thuriniel



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What caught my attention the most about this chapter was this description of the Goblins:

"It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once ..."

When I read this it seemed to me that Tolkien was saying that even today Goblins might be busy creating machines of war. Personally, this little passage screamed to me "plot bunny" Bunny !

One of the questions that popped in my mind as I read is something I've been asking myself for a very long time ... is there a difference between goblins and orcs?

This was one very visual chapter with great descriptions ... you did an excellent job summarizing it Artanis Thumb !

By the way ... I'm finally caught up and ready to join in the discussions Very Happy !

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SpaceWeavil



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read something somewhere on the Goblin / Orc thing, where they discussed the differences or if they were the same thing. Can't for the life of me remember where it was, but I will have a look. If I recall correctly, I think there was either a letter or note from the Professor saying they were the same thing, though I could be wrong.
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sindohte



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jess - It's located in Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien does a whole bit about the whole orc/goblin distinction. Since I am at work, I cannot put my hands on it. If I remember correctly it is located in the last 3/4s of the book.
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SpaceWeavil



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that'll be where I've seen it then. My problem is I scan through things and remember vaguely having seen it, but I have so much stuff lying around, that I use for stories, that I forget where. Very Happy

I'm still looking. Found a few bits on Orcs so far but I'm still searching for the specific bit I'm thinking of.

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sindohte



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jess,

Turns out that there was an earlier thread on the subject - http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687

It is pretty darn scary how good my memory is getting. I must be turning into a shorter and meaner version of Anna Razz As for the information on Orcs, it is located in Morgoth's Ring, Part V. I have a hardcover edition of the text and the section begins on page 409 and continues through page 423. Skimming through the section was very informative because it goes into the issue of whether they have independent wills or not.

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sindohte



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here is another Orc/goblin tidbit taken from HoME, Vol. 4

"The Outer Lands are in darkness. The growth of things was checked when Morgoth quenched the lamps. There are forests of darkness, of yew and fir and ivy. There Orome sometimes hunts, but in the North Morgoth and his demonic broods (Balrogs) and the Orcs (Goblins, also called Glamhoth or people of hate) hold sway" (p. 12).

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NancyBrooke
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I continue to be surprised by how the Hobbit fits and doesn't into the eventually greater scheme of things - the swords of Gondolin, the mention of the war between the Orcs & the Dwarves, how Gandalf is a shallower version of his later self.

And I'd totally forgotten about the Stone Giants! For a moment I wondered of Tolkien was being metaphorical and then I realized he literally meant Giants!

This was a fun chapter, though - more action! and a cliff-hanger (almost literally!).

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