[Forest]

A friend of mine was flamed badly yesterday and she got pretty cut up about it. The flame itself was anonymous (cowards!) and hurled tons of abuse at her and her fic. She's a newbie writer so to be hit hard like that in the first few weeks of fic writing is horrible. She has since taken the fic down from ff.net out of depression and is so downhearted she told me today that she doesn't want to write anymore! I've tried cheering her up in all the ways I know possible, and still nothing.

Any ideas on how to help her?

~Forest

[Roisin]

Hm, how about "Everyone gets bad reviews sometimes?"

I assume you've read her fic? Do you like it? If she wants to work on it some more and repost it, that would be fine. But really, if every writer stopped writing when they got a shitty review, there would be very few writers in the world.

Roisin

[Haleth]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who take great pleasure in running someone else down. The internet makes it easy for them because they can remain anonymous.

It sounds like your friend had the bad luck to run into one of these bullies after writing her very first fic.

Tell her to consider the source of the review and to not let a Net bully stop her from having fun.

[Ilmatar]

I do not know if this will help, but there are some regular anonymous flamers in ff.net. They flame anything and anyone that is not word for word Tolkien. they especially attack younger writers and anything with Legolas and an OC.

Tell your friends that the flamers are just assholes and that their opinion does not matter. If she got nice reviews, tell her to concentrate on them. And in the end any review is better than no review (I am a bit bitter because my story has zero reviews in ff.net ). And she can always tick the box in her profile that says "do not accept anonymous reviews". That usually reduces the amount of flames.

I hate flaming. But constructive stuff is nice.

[inglor]

To expound on what Roisin said, was it betaed? IMHO that would be a great way to help her. I posted a fic on FF one time and it got hammered, I thought it was pretty good but now know it wasn't fit to line a hamster cage. I abandoned it but the next time I wrote something, I first tried my best to work out the kinks then let somebody more friendly than the open public read it and give suggestions. The use of a beta can be more influential to the reception of a story than the story itself.

Also, FF.net isn't a very newbie writer friendly place, some place like here or others that have a good forum and people willing to help is a better place to start. I've found that if you ask for help, someone will usually try to help.

I've read some stuff here that made me cringe but have seen reviews for said fics that were helpful even if all they said was: "Good idea but get a beta reader"

Oh and even the Professor himself got panned

Along those lines:
1. Tell her that only freaks of nature right well on their first try, it takes practice and effort to write things that others will want to read.

Inglor

[NancyBrooke]

Have you read the fic? If it's been beta'ed and you like it suggest she post it here. Guarentee no flames of any kind, especially anonymous ones.

ff.net, because it's so huge and all-encompassing draws all kinds, by definition, the kind and the unkind, without accountability. See if you can get her involved in a community, like this one.

[Viv]

First, tell her to disable anonymous reviews. Second, suggest a site like OSA, where you have to be logged in with your name showing to leave a review.

Amazing how quickly "flames" turn into "constructive criticism" when someone has to sign her (or his) name.

I got a flame on ff.net recently. It was a wild hoot. I even have a nifty icon now that says "Cliched! Pointless! Sappy!" Hee.

[miriel361]

There are some sick people out there who enjoy flaming. Mostly the flames are full of errors and spelling mistakes.

Tell her not to give up and to steer clear of ff.net. There are lots of nice and friendly sites around.

[SpaceWeavil]

I haven't had a flame on FF.Net yet, but I've had some very silly reviews there, mostly by people who either don't speak English as a first language or who can't type/spell/use grammar. Some of the stupid questions I've been asked about stories crack me up as well. I don't really bother much with the reviews on there, as there's never anything constructive.

Someplace like OSA, on the other hand, would be far better I think for someone new to writing, as has been said. It's a much better atmosphere here and if she got some constructive reviews by posting her story on here rather than FF.Net, then that might give her a boost to keep on writing?

[Moralanqua]

Forest -

Your friend is posting her fics at a site full of crapfic where she is unprotected and easy fodder. If she is serious about fic writing, introduce her to beta reading, canon and 'safe' archives like this one.

If she just wants to write crap and expects gushy reviews, then she has to learn to take the good with the bad.

[ellisk]

I taught writing for 15 years and I wrote published reviews professionally for major journals. It was my job to give people criticism of their writing so that they might improve it. In learning to do that sort of teaching the most important thing I learned was that when people write and publish, it is a very exposing experience. It bares the writer's feelings. It is never useful to give a bad or negative review. You will not help people learn to write that way. You will teach them that it is emotionally painful to write. That is especially true of young people. Frankly, some of the reviews I have read right here on this site have been meant to be helpful (I think) but have had a very harsh tone. Even worse, in my opinion, is the person who leaves a one star rating and no review. These things always make me cringe. It is so much easier for a person to learn to improve when they have been told what they did well first (no matter how trivial a thing) and then a suggestion is made. Reviews that are entirely negative are very hard to learn from. They also make me very sad because no matter how naive a person's writing style is, if they are encouraged, it will blossom and if it is squashed they have been deprived of a beautiful potential by harshness. If nothing positive can be found, it is always possible to praise a person's courage to post and suggest a beta.

It is very easy to say 'everyone gets a bad review eventually' or 'tell them to get a beta.' Your hide may be thickened against bad reviews by the padding of a few initial encouraging ones. Or perhaps you are not a 15 year old novice but a more worldly 20 or 30 year old. But if a young person gets a flaming review on their very first attempt, that can truly crush their will to try again. And you rarely know on the Internet who you are reviewing.

It pays to be sensitive and compassionate and try to remember that it is possible that not everyone is as strong natured as you. Balanced reviews offering both positive and negative commentary are helpful and educational. Speak softly when giving constructive criticism and always give praise first.

As for your friend, read the story and point out the parts that you liked...the parts that give it potential. Maybe the characters are lively. Maybe the descriptions are good. Maybe the dialogue is engaging. Whatever. Find three or four things and point them out. Then help find one or two things to make it better. Help correct them and tell her to try posting one more time.

[DarkElfChilde]

I had a big group of flamers with my first lotr fan fic on ff.net, and I took it down. Fortunately, I lost interest in writing it because I went all blah with it...in other words...I didn't like the way it was going before they even started to flame it. But I continue to write because I love writing, and I'm getting better and better at it - Hell, I've been writing stories since the fifth grade, and no one can stop me! Give the flamers the finger like so: <^> and tell them to piss off.

-shifty eyes-

Yes, I'm mean, but when it comes to the flamers, screw being nice. They aren't nice to you, and not giving any advice or ideas to help someone out. Why not? You know, to me, they're a pile of crap.

Your friendly elf,

Dark Elf Childe

[Moralanqua]

It may also help that she knows the difference between a flame and a review thats negative.

Flames are just abuse. However, when someone says something is wrong - that isnt a flame. Unfortunately (not refering directly to your pal) some wannabe writers dont like anything but praise, no matter how false it is.

Try to help your pal distinguish what kind of ficcer she is. Is she doing it for her own enjoyment? Is she an aspiring writer? Does she like doing it but is actually only in it to get praise? Understanding what kind of ficcer will help you help her more.

There is no point bringing an uninterested leggy fangirl to a site where writing is taken seriously and help encouraged. That sort of person would thrive better at archives where there is a buddy mentality and praise given (like HL or J&G on yahoo).

The same sort of reasoning applies if your pal is an aspiring writer who as been hurt and discouraged by this. That sort of person wont thrive as well on groups like HL because she wont learn. She needs an archive like OSA. Resources and different (but honest) opinions as well as public feedback will encourage and educate her. She'll learn and be safe while she does so.

Have a chat with her and tell her that FF.net is a joke. She has many more options and avenues to try! There are many ppl who will help too!

[Elennare]

I found my way here from FF.net (due to an OSA member who posted very tempting excerpts, and a link to this site) and while the writing over there runs the whole spectrum from "so bad it should never have seen the light of day" to very talented, most of the reviews seem to either be fawning over a favoured author or flames.

While it can be possible for new writers to mistake constructive criticism for flames, if the offensive comments were against the writer rather than just the story (as Forest was indicating), then it's really not acceptable.

I can't add anything as far as a writer's experience goes - I've written little other than poetry since I left school (and I don't even let my boyfriend see it), but I learned a valuable lesson from a published writer - Juliet McKenna - at a convention earlier this year. She said that every writer had to write half a million works before they would produce something worth publishing, whether it was scientific journals, fiction, even letters to friends. Every piece should be kept - especially the bad ones - because everything is a learning experience. Even if you think your writing is bad, you should keep working on it, becuase the twin pillars of success are creativity and perseverance.

[Andreth]

Forest, I am sorry for your friend's harsh treatment. True flames are not pleasant things for a writer to deal with, regardless of how old or how experienced they are.

But as unfortunate as negativity is, it's something we all have to deal with at one time or another. Especially as writers. If we're going to put our writing out there for the public to see and review, then we have to be prepared for what may come our way. It's not always going to be positive. I've been told by teachers and editors that we have to learn to separate ourselves from our work - otherwise we take the criticisms and/or suggestions as being about us personally instead of being about our work. We do need to try to develop thick skins and be able to take criticism, because that 50-th rejection letter is just as unpleasant as the first. It just doesn't get any easier and the best way to deal with criticism is to make it work for us.

And I agree with Mora - people need to understand the difference between flames and criticism. I don't doubt that your friend was flamed, from the sound of it, and real flames suck because they're worthless. They're only designed to insult, not help. But there are many writers who take any negativity that's not dressed up all nice and flowery to help cushion them from the blow as being a flame. They're not. There are some people who are going to be direct in their reviews and list the problems. It's nice to have something positive to help salve the wounds, but not everyone's going to do that. And the lack of those positive statements *doesn't* make that criticism a flame. It makes it what we should all hope and expect to get - an honest review.

This is a safe place to post at and to learn, because Scribe, Do and Robbie don't tolerate flamers and they act on reviewers who do truly flame. That's not to say that your friend won't get any criticism or negative reviews here, because we run that risk any time we post our stories on an archive with a review function. Especially if we consistently turn out poor fics with no signs of improvement. But while good reviews make us feel better, critical reviews are what truly help us learn, IMO, because they challenge us to do better. Some of the best advice I've ever had has come in the form of criticism and negative reviews.

I also agree with what Inglor said - if a writer is getting consistently negative reviews on their stories then they need to take an honest look at their stories and see what can be done to improve it. Writers should always be looking for ways to improve, no matter how long they've been writing. Tell her to find someone with more experience than her to help out, or to get some good books on creative writing. There are also many good websites out there about improving writing skills. And stay away from FF.net. It's full of crappy stories and crappy reviewers. Not all are bad, but it's definitely not a place to wander in unprepared.

I'm sorry for going off on such a long post, and the majority of this isn't even about your friend's specific situation. This just happened to come at a time when I was already stewing over this very thing and wondering why I even bother to leave critical advice for authors who clearly don't want it, or why those authors bother to post their stories for others to review if they don't want to improve their writing skills.

Basically Forest, just tell your friend to dust herself off and get back in the saddle. If everyone quit riding the first time they got bucked, there'd be a lot of lonely horses out there. And if all writers quit writing the first time they got kicked, there'd be a lot of untold stories. In a few months she'll be looking back and wondering why she let those idiots' opinions even bother her in the first place.