[Roisin]

OK, I'm at a point in a story where I want Gimli to utter some sort of expletive, but I have no clue. Do people curse in ME? What do they say?

Roisin

[Hathor]

(For those of you who are offended by some strongishlanguage, please turn away now. I just thought I should put that, just in case...)

Hard question. Especially since there is nothing worse than reading Legolas say "F***!" It's not particularly modern slang, because I understand it's been around a while (I think. Correct me if I'm wrong!), but it's still slang, and Tolkien's characters seem to be very particular about speaking with a best formal English and at worse, very slightly non-standard English.

But they have to curse sometime, right? You can't have a language without expletives of some form.

'Damn' is maybe acceptable. It seems to fit- it's a fairly old curse, despite it having some religious (Christian?) connotations.

I try to use expressions- I once used "by the stars..." which is almost like an oath, similiar to the way we might say "oh my god..." etc.

A lot of people seem to like using the Valar as a curse, although this has obvious drawbacks- would you say "Oh, TABLE!" After all, Elves know that the Valar exist, and lets face it, the older ones (Galadriel, etc) would have some first hand knowledge of them, and it takes away all the fun, swearing about something that you know exists. While it may do a useful job, it's not something to curse over.

And, of course, certain terms are acceptable to certain people. For example, I can use mildish English swear words in front of my parents, such as buggar or sod, but there is no way in hell that I could call someone a wanker, since despite the fact I am legally an adult etc, it's just wrong. But then look at my grandparents- saying the term "Damn!" in front of them is one of the worst breaches of social etiquette I could do. So the individual has to be kept in mind.

Basically, mildish swearing you could get away with, as long as it had non-sexual connotations when used as a more general term. If you wanted to be really, really explicit, and break Middle-Earthian taboos, give it sexual innudendo. Perhaps more oathy curses, of a Generic!Fantasy type?

Failing that- it's Gimli. "By Mahal's beard!" he cried...

If you're really interested, I found a good exam answer type thing http://www.chuckiii.com/Reports/English/Swearing.shtml at this location. It's a look at how and why we swear in modern society.

*looks up at reply*

Ah, evidently you can't use general swearing on the forum... Fill in the stars, then. The message still gets across.

[Elvenesse]

I can't really remember any at the moment.
You could use: 'may Mandos/Morgoth take you', or 'may the Valar curse you'. But these are a bit mild and generalised.

[NancyBrooke]

I think we're on the right track, here. We modern folk tend to use profanity, i.e. slang words that stand for things we don't talk about in polite conversation like sex acts and bodily functions. Hard to find an ME equivalent.

In general, oaths, however, are easier, comparatively. Fileg and I had a brief conversation about this when I was writing "Leaves on the Wind" and I wanted Faramir to add an oath in his letter. I went with the fabricated Sindarin "eglerio galu" to mean 'praise good fortune.'

Swearing by a particular Valar might have merit, whichever one the swearer might most admire or want to call upon (this was Fileg's suggestion).

Your swearer might also call upon something natural he identifies with, stars, stone, steel etc. One character I'm writing says "Sui gaearon nur" to mean 'as the sea is deep' because he's a sailor.

So, about Gimli. Think about his culture, what's important to him. He should definately swear in Khuzdul, about which we know so little; no way he would use an elf language. He might swear to a dwarven hero, e.g. Irwain, or the Seven Fathers, or Aule the Valar who made them. He might say something enigmatic like "by the Maker" or "by stone and rock" or might curse by invoking dwarvish evils, 'devils of the deep,' leaking water,' 'rust' or 'dullness' even.

The best resource for Khuzdul is, of course, Ardalambion - http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/khuzdul.htm,

Good notes on Dwarvish culture and origins can be found at the Enclopedia of Arda - http://www.glyphweb.com/arda

Good luck! I hope this helps.

[Viv]

I once wrote a ficlet in Gimli pov and he said something like "Aule help me" or something to express distress. Aule is essentially God to the dwarves. A dwarf probably wouldn't mention any other Vala.

Gimli is also a dwarven warrior, from a long line of warriors. So his curses could conceivably be bloody: "I'll have your head" or "may vermin pick your entrails off my axe" or such stuff.

Also, most of the English archaic curses have Christian religious connotations without actually referring to religion explicitly. "Zounds," for instance, is a shortened version of the seemingly arbitrary exclamation "God's wounds!". So you could create a similarly structured Middle-earth-type curse, like "Orome's bow!" or "Melkor in chains!"

[NancyBrooke]

[KhazarKhum]

FWIW, "damn" is Latin. One of the worse things you could have happen to you in Rome was damnatio memorae (sp?)--ie, you are cursed forever.

So damning someone should be OK.

Gandalf offers us a clue: in ROTK, when he meets the Witch-king at Minas Tirith, he says, "Go back to the void!" which does sound suspiciously like an invitation to visit a rather warm neighborhood.

khazar

[Hathor]

If it's specific Gimli swearing, then I think he'd probably say "Mahal" as opposed to "Aule." I might be wrong- I haven't got a copy of The Silm to hand, am in college at the moment- but I'm almost sure that Aule is the Elvish name, whilst Mahal is the Dwarvish equivalent...

Don't quote me. I just thought it was an interesting point.

And I really, really like the "may vermin pick your entrails off my axe!" It's nearly as good as "Frell!" (Which isn't very Middle-Earthish, I will admit, but I do tend to use frell and smeg in RL now...)

[Viv]

[dolarabee]

[Ellbee]

To damn does mean "to condemn", though not necessarily to hell. Condemnation is certainly a concept that predates Judeo-Christian beliefs. And aren't there characters in Tolkien's works who are effectively cursed? There are, after all, many other forms of punishment besides hell. I'm sure with a little imagination a dozen clever Middle-earth alternatives could be found.

I've always been partial to "sweet fornicating mother of Morgoth," myself.

-Ell

[KhazarKhum]

[dolarabee]