[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Barrels Out of Bond will officially begin on Monday 11/1.

Ellisk will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Hobbit.
_________________
A surly attitude is the best form of birth control.

[ellisk]

This chapter starts with the dwarves (minus Thorin, who was captured by the elves in the last chapter) and Bilbo lost in the forest. They decide to try to find the path once more before they starve to death but they are captured by elves. Bilbo slips his ring on and avoids capture but the others are bound in a line, blindfolded and taken back to the Elvenking’s fortress. Bilbo, still hidden by the ring, follows.

We get a description of the path/bridge leading to the Elvenking’s halls (This was the bridge that led across the river to the king’s doors. The water flowed dark and swift and strong beneath; and at the far end were gates before the mouth of a huge cave that ran into the side of a steep slope covered with trees. There the great beeches came right down to the bank, till their feet were in the stream,) and the inside of the halls/the Elvenking (These were not like those of the goblin-cities: they were smaller, less deep underground, and filled with a cleaner air In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking on a chair of carven wood. On his head was a crown of berries and red leaves, for the autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers. In his hand he held a carven staff of oak.)

The dwarves are brought before the Elvenking and questioned as Thorin was in the last chapter. Like Thorin, they refuse to answer the questions and instead anger the Elvenking by asking if it is a crime to be in his forest and upset his ‘pet’ spiders. So the Elvenking orders them imprisoned in separate cells.

Bilbo hides in the caves, wandering through them and outside them following guards through the magic stone doors. He never takes off his ring and steals food and drink to survive. When he’s outside, he cannot keep up with the hunting elves so he can’t find the way out of the forest. Eventually, inside he finds all the dwarves cells, including Thorin’s. He speaks to Thorin, who was so desperate he was going to tell the Elvenking about his quest, and Thorin takes heart that Bilbo could rescue them. He tells Bilbo to tell the others to keep quiet about the quest.

With more wandering, Bilbo discovers an underground stream that the elves use to transport goods into the fortress. One evening after discovering that, Bilbo sees the dwarves’ guard and the butler sit down and drink some wine. It is too strong and they pass out. Bilbo steals the keys, lets the dwarves out of their cells and brings them to the underground stream. His plan is to get the dwarves out in the barrels. They are not immediately keen on that idea, saying they’ll be roughed up, but they don’t want to go back to their cells either. So, Bilbo packs them all in barrels and gives the guard the keys back.

Just as he’s finishing packing them in, the laborers who are supposed to send the barrels down the river arrive and wake up the butler. They comment that the barrels don’t seem empty but the butler tells them to send them down the river so they push them in.

Bilbo then sees the flaw in his plan—how does he get out. He decides to go with the barrels with his ring on so as the last barrel goes over, he clings to it and is dragged into the river. He clings to it ‘like a rat’ and goes down the river with the barrels.

They eventually reach the point in the river where they are gathered, tied together and poled to Laketown. It’s night so they leave them until morning. Then they notice some of them float too low but don’t want to take time to inspect them, so they shove off with the barrels to Laketown--barrels, dwarves and Bilbo and all.

[ellisk]

I'll add some commentary too--this is my favorite chapter in The Hobbit. In addition to the cleverness/comedy of Bilbo's escape, it is interesting to me because it is the only source of a lotof the canon information we have about the Elvenking and his Halls.

This and the last chapter/questioning of Thorin is the source of Evil!Thranduil--his love for wine and "cruelty" to the dwarves. That amazes me because I never saw that. Sure he's angry with the dwarves--they won't tell him why they are there and they accuse him of keeping the spiders as pets. What reaction do you expect?!

Anyhoo, since I love Thranduil, I love this chapter and the chance we have to see him in it.

[NancyBrooke]

This chapter really continues the themes of the previous one, while cooling its heels with Bilbo in Thranduil's halls (who, technically, he still has no name).

But Bilbo continues his progression to Hero ( ) by devising, coordinating, and effecting the Dwarves escape. I love that he just tells them all what to do unless, of course, they all just want back into their nice safe cells. I found the long description of the water journey somewhat boring, though; I might have preferred a detailed map.

I'm afraid I have to come down on the side of those not enamored of Thranduil. I think Tolkien really paints a conflicted an unflattering portrait of him. Clearly Tolkien likes Elves, and places them at the cultural heirarchy of Middle Earth, but Thranduil is not shown as a shining example the way Elrond is earlier. Wood-Elves aren't ever really the same kind of Elf as those of Rivendell - they're lower, as it were. Thranduil has lots of 'human' faults (while the humans, as personified by Bard, come off very well later): he is greedy, glutonous (for wine, anyway), suspicous, and his people just live off their neighbors. Unlike even Beorn, the Elven-king has little history and little character in The Hobbit, appearing much more as a plot device than a character. I think it's interesting and revealing that Tolkien doesn't even give him a name.

It's interesting that so much fandom has grown up around this non-entity, largely because he's Legolas's father. But I digress ...

[ellisk]

I definitely agree that the primary function of the last two chapter's is to build Bilbo as a hero, which he clearly is--he rescues the dwarves at every turn. He saves them from the spiders. He saves them from the Elvenking's halls. He even saves them from their own greed in the later chapters by delivering a bargaining device, the Arkenstone, to Bard. He finds a way to defeat the dragon. And he keeps the Ring for years without completely succombing to its power. He is truly a hero.

I also agree that Thranduil, in this early work, is very much a plot device--nameless, as NancyBrooke mentioned. But isn't it also interesting that Bilbo, the clear hero of this work, when it comes down to choosing sides, chooses to stand with the Elvenking in the Battle of the Five Armies? Isn't it interesting that this same clear hero feels compelled to offer the Elvenking recompensation for his 'hospitality?'

As I argued in the post under Flies and Spiders, when one looks at the overall picture of this minor character, the Elvenking is not the evil monster people (let me edit this to be clearer--people in general and not NancyBrooke in particular) have taken him to be. (Edit--The following comments are intended to dispute the concept of Evil!Thranduil--not necessarily anything that anyone has said in this discussion.)

--He imprisoned the dwarves: they trespassed in the land he, as king, was responsible for protecting--his realm. Then they refused to answer his simple questions about what they were doing there. He had every right to hold them until they answered his questions.

--He has a weakness for silver and gems: but he wears a crown of leaves and is not described as covered in gems; he says he will not fight a war over gold and cautions Bard to cool down; he argues for treasure, but for the men, never himself; he diverts his trip to go to the Lonely Mountain to answer the Men's plees for help; he does not immediately accept Bilbo's gift but rather asks why he deserves it.

--He likes wine: so what? Is there any description of the Elvenking passed out from wine or actually being drunk? None at all. Most people in Medieval times drank wine. Most people I know in Europe still drink wine with dinner. Elrond had Miruvor. Did that make him a drunk or a glutton?

--He hates Men and Dwarves and other races in general: If that is so, why does he divert to help the Men of Laketown? Why does Bard call him his friend and stand up for him against the dwarves? Why does the Elvenking pay homage to Thorin after the Battle of the Five Armies--the same dwarf that had insulted him repeatedly? Why does he name Bilbo elf-friend? Why is Gandalf, presumably a very wise Maia, such a good friend of the Elvenking?

--He lives off his neighbors: If that is true, why does the Master of Laketown later described in this way, "Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him." If that is true, how is it that when Laketown was destroyed by the dragon, he sent them help ('but great store of goods he sent ahead by water')? If he had nothing to offer in return, why would the Men of Laketown traded with him?


--He is less cultured: There is no evidence of that. The woodelves are described that way, but the Elvenking is not a woodelf. And he is described as the woodelves' greatest king. He must be somewhat smart to earn that description. And being closer to nature and less technological is a good thing in Tolkien's world.

Yes, Thranduil is a minor character, and I think much of the fanfiction dedicated to him is a result of his relation to Legolas--frankly also a very minor character in the books. But I like Thranduil (and always have since first reading The Hobbit) because I think it is amazing that he kept his realm safe--with Sauron/the Nazgul in Dol Guldur--without the protection of a Ring. And long after Lothlorien and Rivendell faded, the Woodland Realm is described as surviving and flourishing. That is the type of Thrandul fanfiction that interests me--stories that explore how that could have happened.

[Elentari]

[ellisk]

[NancyBrooke]

What did I say that you seem to be taking offence to? That I find this a

[ellisk]

I take no offense at all--I am merely contradicting your characterization of the Elvenking. As I said under the Flies and Spiders post, if I made a statement that was insulting, I apologize. I am new to the "Books" section of this forum. I only just noticed this part (the Reading Group part) of the forum and clearly I misunderstood its purpose. I thought it was appropriate to make interpretations of the book. That is all I was intending to do--make an argument about my view of Thranduil based on The Hobbit. Not to look for arguments. I respectfully withdraw.

[Elentari]

Geez, we were just argumenting. The internet, blesssed be, has been known to ensure a few misunderstandings, due to lack of body-language.

Everybody happy. good. Now let's go back to the book-- i mean the matter at hand.

[ellisk]

[NancyBrooke]

How about Tolkien's inclusion of magic, here and in the Hobbit in general.

What do you all think?

[Marnie]

I know that people are making an effort to get away from this subject but I wanted to say that perhaps *both* your perspectives were what Tolkien intended.

As far as Thranduil goes we can look at the evidence two different ways - we can look at it from the perspective of the story, and the heroes of the story, who are the Dwarves and Bilbo.

As far as Bilbo and the Dwarves are concerned, Thranduil is an obstacle in their way, and someone who doesn't immediately go out of his way to help them. Therefore, by story logic, he is a baddie.

*However*, if we pull back from Bilbo and the Dwarves' perspective we can see that

Apprehending trespassers in your realm is a normal part of keeping law and order.

Refusing to accept cheek from them (Balin in particular is less polite to Thranduil than he is to the Great Goblin), is an essential part of kingship. A king can't afford to let people question his authority.

Therefore - to a large extent - the Dwarves' treatment by the Elven king is due to their own behaviour.

Our initial impression of Thranduil (as an antagonist of the heroes) *is* probably a bad one. However, we can see that (a) the dwarves bring it on themselves with their rudeness, (b) he treats them relatively well - gives them plenty of food and certainly doesn't torture them.

We also see that his people are out partying. Now the impression this gives me is that Thranduil's rule is one in which his people are prosperous, happy and contented, with time to party. His gaoler and his butler feel unconcerned about siphoning off some of his best wine, so he can hardly be a hard taskmaster, or penny pinching - otherwise he would notice.

His people laugh and sing as they do the mundane tasks of their lives - like unloading barrels to be shipped down to Laketown *with whom they clearly have an established trade route* whatever that one sentance says. This also indicates to me that Thranduil's rule is a happy one.

The bad things which are said about Thanduil are summarized with 'All this, of course, every dwarf knew.' In other words this is what the Dwarves say about him. Not necessarily the absolute truth. Indeed, we can see in the paragraph about bargaining with them to shape raw silver and refusing to pay them, that they are getting confused between Thranduil and Thingol.

Are the dwarves trustworthy witnesses in this? Or would it be better to look at what Thranduil does in future and see that (a) he sends famine relief to Laketown, out of his own pocket, and (b) he tries to argue Bard *out* of starting a war just for treasure.

The more you read it, the more the evidence stacks up for Thranduil being a really good bloke. However, that may be a realization which quietly takes place in later chapters. One of Tolkien's clevernesses with The Hobbit, I think, is the way he changes everything. Bilbo turns from an insufferable middle class twit to a hero, and Thranduil turns from a baddy in the Dwarves' way to a magnificent elven king of old. And the wonderful thing is that you never really saw it coming, but it's so obvious once it arrives

[Marnie]

Oh, and you *can* neither trade nor cultivate and still live quite well by hunting and gathering, if you live in a forest.

You can also trade timber, charcoal, all kinds of nuts, apples + other tree-fruits, bear and deer pelts, antler etc down the river for luxuries such as wine, which manifestly is going on, or how would Bilbo have escaped?

[ellisk]

Marnie,

I'll just throw in here really briefly and say I think you are correct here. The Hobbit is written from the point of view of the dwarves who do see the Elvenking and Mirkwood as their most frightening obstacles--you could see that in their conversation with Beorn.

Therefore the difference between what is said about Thranduil and Thranduil's actions may represent the difference between the dwarves' view and a reality that the reader is left to discover.