[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Flies and Spiders will officially begin on Monday 10/25.

Leila will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Hobbit.

[NancyBrooke]

In prepping to post re: Barrels out of Bond I realized I really had to start back here (just couldn't wait, Leila, sorry!).

This is where we get our first introduction to the Wood Elves, and it's a fascinating element of a pivotal chapter.

The first time we see them they're out partying: "eating and drinking and laughing merrily." ('Merry', as a matter of fact, seems to be JRRT's number one descriptor of Hobbit-era Elves.) But the minute Thorin's party violates the fire circle "all the lights went out as if by magic." (don't you love the 'as if'?) And the magical element intensifies - when Bilbo alone is sent into the next fire ring he immediately falls into a dead sleep. Lastly, it is Thorin who triggers the Elfin magic (falling asleep "like a stone enchanted") and so becomes a prisoner of the Elvenking.

When the narrative breaks away from the tale of Bilbo and the Spiders to fill us in on what's happened to Thorin we get our introduction to Thranduil (though his name is not used here), how and where he lives, and some whiff of the emnity between Elves and Dwarves.

"Wood-elves" the professor tells us, "are not wicked folk ... they differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise ... Still, elves they were and remain, and that is Good People." They are also "reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies."

We also learn that the Elf King has a weakness "for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich he was ever eager for more." The first thing the Elven King does in his interrogation of Thorin is to accuse him of attacking his people.

It certainly isn't a flattering portrait that emerges; The King is greedy, xenophobic, not too cultured, and his people mostly party and hunt relying on their neighbors for most of their supplies.

Again its an instance, it seems to me, that shows Tolkien's emerging concept of Middle Earth, its history and peoples. Clearly, his later depictions of Elves and elven culture is much more flattering, serious and even central to the Trilogy at its heart. Here the elves are just sort of childish plot-thickeners.

I also find their overt use of magic (something that is downplayed in the trilogy) fascinating.

But perhaps the most important element of this chapter, which really comes to the fore in "Barrels out of Bond" is increasing importance of Bilbo. It is he who engineers their crossing of the dark river, and he by himself who defeats the spiders and saves the dwarves. At last, not only is he the narrator of the story, he is finally becoming the hero.

[ellisk]

I tend to agree that this chapter and the next are certainly where the image of Evil!Thranduil is born. I do think, however, that it is a gross misinterpretation of the story caused by the influence of people reading with a twentieth century misunderstanding of the etiquette of medieval travel and a preconception of Thranduil due to Evil!Thranduil fanfiction.

Yes, the wood elves are described as 'more dangerous and less wise' than other elves, and certainly they were, for they had never gone to Valinor as the Noldor had to learn from the Valar. But the phrase that seems to always be forgotten or at least less emphasized is 'Still, elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.'

Furthermore, I do not think this description of the woodelves applies to Thranduil at all--he is not a wood elf, but rather Sindarin from Doriath. He, undoubtedly, was more educated than hs subjects. That is, afterall, why his father was asked by the woodelves to rule them. They recognized he was more suited to lead them than they were to lead themsleves. Thranduil is described in this chapter as 'their greatest king.'

As for the the idea that the Elvenking has a weakness 'for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich he was ever eager for more,'--true that is said, but later on it is Thranduil that says long will I tarry ere I fight this war over gold or something to that effect. He does argue for some of the treasure--but for the Men, not for himself. And when Bilbo offers him a reward, instead of immediately accepting it, he asks what he has done to deserve it. So he cannot be that greedy. I think that the casual reader should not/would not immediately assume that simply because the king has a weakness for silver and white gems that he is greedy--perhaps that means he simply likes them. I have a weakness for saphires, but I am not a greedy person. Just because it says that 'he was ever eager for more' does not necessarily mean he was greedy either. Silver and white gems would be valuable payment in those days and he would need such riches to make trade for truly valuable commodities such as ore for swords. If he was so fascinated by silver and white gmes, why isn't he described as bedecked in them? He is not. Even his crown is only made of leaves and berries.

As for his treatment of the dwarves, how is it not justified and how is it xenophobic? The dwarves do crash in on the elves merry-making and when Thorin is questioned, he refuses to answer any questions because he doesn't want to share any part of his treasure with the elves. When questioned by a king about trespassing in his realm, it is wise to provide some answers, but Thorin refuses. It is perfectly reasonable to imprison such a person. And Thranduil does feed him since he's starving.

IMHO, I do not think that Thranduil and the woodelves could be described as "greedy, xenophobic, not too cultured."

But as much as I love Thranduil, I think the description I most disagree with is "and his people mostly party and hunt relying on their neighbors for most of their supplies" Just because they are having a party in this chapter does not mean that is all they do. It is a plot device to get the king in the forest at night so he can meet the dwarves there. Indeed the woodelves have survived in a forest inhabited by Sauron and spiders and Nazgul and orcs for two millennia--they must be doing some work to pull that off. And it would be natural that woodelves would hunt and live off the bounty of the forest. Since they live in the forest, they could not produce some things so they would trade with their nearest neighbors--men--for them. Presumably, they have something to offer in return or the men wouldn't find them valuable trade partners. That is good economics, not a frivolous attitude.

When I first read this chapter, being familiar with Medieval literature and having never read any LotR fanfiction to form any other opinion of the Elvenking--this chapter gave me a wholly different impression of elves than the one I have seen in Evil!Thranduil fiction. I saw it as an attempt to contrast the elves in the forest with the elves in Rivendell and the Elvenking (obviously a minor character since he doesn't even rate a name) with Elrond. I saw that Tolkien likely did see the woodelves as more rustic than the obviously learned elves in Rivendell (afterall, Elrond's house and not Thranduil's is the Last Homely House in the east). Their rustic nature would not be a bad thing however in Tolkien's canon where technology (Saruman) is seen as evil and nature (the Shire, for example) is seen as good. Indeed, they are described as Good People.

When I first read this, I also tended to blame the dwarves' actions for their plight--they refused to answer the king's questions, setting themselves up for later conflict with Elvenking and the Men who he succoured and who therefore stood by his side later. It is the dwarves' unwillingness to be reasonable--to reward Bard for slaying the dragon or share the treasure, part of which was Bard's by right--that caused conflict that could only be overcome when they were faced in the Battle of the Five Armies with a common foe. I think more than painting Thranduil in any particular light, this chapter establishes the dwarves' stubborness and greed so that the reader is ready for the dwarves' reaction to Bard later.

[NancyBrooke]

Whoa! very confused now ...

Ellisk, if your remarks were in response to mine I'm not sure whether to be offended or offer you a nice warm cup of camomile tea, a comfy chair and a massage therapist.

I didn't bring up "Evil!Thranduil" and formed my stated opinion about the character exclusively from Tolkien's words in this chapter, and in this chapter alone (though I did offer a little personal perspective on JRRT and elves in general invoking later works). I stand by my statement that "it certainly isn't a flattering portrait that emerges." I don't think this is a "gross misinterpretation".

If Thranduil emerges as a more sympathetic character and complex in other works then bully for him. That isn't the way I find him as of this chapter in this book.

I imagine most people reading The Hobbit do so with a quite forgivable level of ignorance about medieval travel etiquette (in my local Barnes and Nobles, at least, it is shelved in the Children's section) and for the record, I have yet read a Thranduil fic of any sort.

It's clear you're a big Thranduil fan, but we're discussing the Hobbit, here, not whether your paticular favorite is a good guy or not. Perhaps we should stick to discussing the text.

[ellisk]

I certainly do not mean to be insulting to you and if I was I sincerely apologize. And I greatly respect your right to respond to the text as it strikes you. That is how literature works, I think. Everyone reads it from their own perspective with their own background influencing them. That part of what makes it interesting.

Yes, I do love Thranduil and I think since he plays a role in some of these ending chapters of The Hobbit (including this one), this is a good place to discuss him since he is interesting to me. You cited some parts of this chapter to describe him and how you formed an unflattering picture of him in your mind. I intended to point out that I formed a different point of view of him given his overall depiction in this chapter and the other chapters in the text. I do think that there is no basis for describing him as "greedy, xenophobic, not too cultured, and his people mostly party and hunt relying on their neighbors for most of their supplies" as you did and I argued that point based on The Hobbit.

But I do not intend to be offensive and again, I sincerely apologize if I was.

[NancyBrooke]

I just object to misinterpretation - of my posts in particular.

I like a good argument, and a detailed discussion of the Hobbit is what I have been hoping for in these threads. But let's take it to the text. I don't think I stated anything (except "gluttonous" somewhere, though it does say the king is "especially ... fond of wine") that doesn't have its clear antecedant in the text itself. I'm sorry that you object to

[ellisk]

If you indeed do not mind an argument, then I will proceed, but I do so with the proviso that this is most certainly not an attack nor do I intend to show any lack of respect to your opinions in particular. I should not have used the term misinterpretation (and in truth, when I said gross misinterpretation I was not thinking of your arguments specifically but of Evil!Thranduil in general).

Ok--to look at the text:

Greed: Tolien says, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old."

I do not think this alone demonstrates that greed is a central aspect of the elvenking's character. As I stated, his actions throughout the rest of the book demonstrate he is not so greedy that this emotion controls his actions--he gives generously to the Men of Laketown in their need; he argues for treasure, but not for himself; he states long will I tarry ere I fight this war voer gold; he places a gem and a very valuable sword on Thorin's tomb; he asks why he deserves Bilbo's gift rather than jumping on it; he does not bedeck himself in gems. Granted, these actions are from later chapters. Perhaps it is not appropriate to bring them up now.

Xenophobia: Tolkien says, "If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers."

Does distrust equal xenophobia? Perhaps not. Living in a dangerous forest, is it not legitimate for them to be a little distrustful of strangers? At anyrate, again their distrust and suspicions do not control their actions. They aid the men of Laketown in later chapters. They clearly have a trade relationship with them since they use rafts to transport wine barrels to and from Laketown. The elvenking invites Gandalf and Bilbo back to his halls after the battle. He pays homage to Thorin after the battle. These do not seem to be the actions of a xenophobic person.

Trade: Tolkien says, "they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth."

They may not bother with trade much but they obviously do enough to be getting wine from Laketown. Did Laketown just give it to them for free? They must have been trading something. But truthfully the portrayal that I objected to here was the idea of them partying and living off their neighbors. That is not based in text. They hunted and took from the forest what they needed ("the subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground and in the branches.") That is a far cry from depending on others or partying. Hunting or trapping enough game to feed a family everyday is very hard work. And if that provides for ther needs, why is it something that should be criticized?

[Elentari]

[ellisk]