[Lossefalme01]

Hello, everyone! I just had a quick question about Legolas and Faramir in the Fourth Age....

I know that Legolas went down to Ithilien and lived there with some of his people, but what I'm not clear on is what his proper title was when he got there. Was he still Prince Legolas or would he be King Legolas or just Lord Legolas? I am all confused here... I keep wanting to call him King since he's in charge of his own realm, but then it sounds odd (because I'm so used to calling him Prince of Mirkwood) and I'm not sure that's technically right since Thranduil is still King of Eyrn Lasgalan for a long while after Legolas goes to Ithilien.... but I don't know. So... can anyone help me out with this little fact? Opinions, comments??

My other question has to do with Faramir. Does anyone know how long Faramir lived? And after he died who became Steward? I've read that somewhere and now I can't remember where it was I read it.... probably in some appendix.... but also, while Faramir was in Ithilien, what was his proper title? Did his people call him Steward or something else? AH! Any help on these matters would be VERY MUCH appreciated!!!!

So thanks all of you in advance!!!

[NancyBrooke]

Ah, the compulsive question answerer strikes again!

[ellisk]

[VanatheEverYoung]

[ilistine]

I too found that info at Encyclopedia of Arda. When clicking on Faramir there comes up a family tree that looks like Barahir is their son, but when you click on Barahir you find he is their grandson. They then explain that JRRT had planned on using the name Elboron for the son of Faramir and Eowyn.

So does anyone have any info to support this claim or dispute it? One of my stories relies heavily on the geneology that VanyaTheEverYoung just provided.

Sorry to hijack this thread if I have!
Keek

PS I thought Faramir was the prince of Emen Arnen?

[ellisk]

I am no expert on Men but I am going to have to side with NancyBrooke on the Faramir thing. According to The History of Middle-earth, vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth: "The Heirs of Elendil," p. 204-207, 221, 223-- Faramir's son was Elboron and his grandson was Barahir.

And as for his titles:

Faramir bore the title Lord of Emyn Arnen (Appendix A: "The Realms in Exile," p. 319 )

Prince of Ithilien--given to him by Aragorn (The Return of the King: "The Steward and the King," p. 247)

and

Steward of Gondor--got the title after his father's death and kept it at Aragorns command when he offered to surrender the White Rod --symbol of the Steward's office. (The Return of the King: "The Steward and the King," p. 237, 242, 245 )

[SpaceWeavil]

I can't find any reference to Faramir's grandchildren in the appendices, that would contradict what's in HoME. You have to be careful sometimes as Peoples of ME has some different names for sons of people (like I found that out with the sons of Isildur), but I can't find anything else that gives other names for Faramir's kids.

Not that it is entirely reliable, but my Complete Tolkien Companion also lists Barahir as Faramir's grandson, and the composer of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

My tuppence' worth

[VanatheEverYoung]

Umm ... I'm confused, ellisk ... Are you argeeing with NancyBrooke or myself and ilistine? Your post says Elboron was Faramir's son, but NancyBrooke thinks his name was Barahir of Gondor.

[Thuriniel]

This is all based on my personal opinion, so you are welcome to ignore it as rubbish if you think it doesn't make any sense .

Ithilien has a King ... the King of Gondor and Arnor. Ithilien is part of the realm of Aragorn, watched over by Faramir. In my opinion, Legolas would've had lordship over the wood-elves that moved there to replenish the land, but that's about it. So I would think he would have been prince of Eryn Lasgalen, but Lord of the Wood-elves of Ithilien.

As for Thranduil ... I have always had the impression that he stayed in Middle-earth with his people. It doesn't say anything at all about him sailing West, and in "The Hobbit" I remember reading something about the wood-elves living well into the age of Men. Considering what a protective King Thranduil was, I don't think he would've left his people. Thus Legolas wouldn't have had the title of King ... besides, we have NO evidence that Legolas was the eldest nor the only son ... and there are many reasons to believe that he probably had brothers and he happened to be one of the youngest.

That's my two cents worth ... I'll go hide now

[Andreth]

Thuriniel summed up the info on Legolas very well. I can't think of anything to add.

On Faramir, his grandson definitely was named Barahir. In FotR prologue, 'Note on the Shire records" - The full tale is stated to have been written by Barahir, grandson of the Steward Faramir, some time after the passing of the King.

In Peoples of Middle-earth, The Heirs of Elendil, there's a family line for Dol Amroth and it names Elboron as Faramir and Eowyn's son but his name isn't mentioned anywhere else. So most people assume that Elboron is Barahir's father since it's the only other name mentioned in reference to Faramir's descendants.

As for Faramir's title after the reconstruction, in Letters of Tolkien the professor explains Faramir's place in the royal set up to a fan who had criticized what he saw as Faramir's dismissal after Aragorn took power: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the retored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, it its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territiory, clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. THe chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Numenorean King was a Monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor."

Probably more than you wanted to know.

Anna

PS - Jeni - I got your email about TWTF and will get the answers back to you by the weekend. Sorry, I'm running behind even more behind than usual in answering emails.

[daw]

I think it's legitimate to assume the Legolas was a "prince" since his father was a king, but Tolkien never actually calls him that that I know of. At least, I don't think he does.

I suspect that "my lord" is the safest thing to use.

[NancyBrooke]

Oops! Guess I jumped a little quickly at The Encyclopedia of Arda. I should know better not to explicitly trust secondary sources! Thanks everybody for setting me/us straight.

[Lossefalme01]

WOW! I came back to check on answers and lookie at what I found! LOL. THANK YOU SO MUCH to all of you who have put in two cents (or more or less! ) All of the information was very helpful and useful and helped a great deal to clear up my confusion!! Now I just need to find out exactly how old Faramir would be at the time my story takes place! Heh... anyone know when he was born? I suppose I could do a rough estimate... I know he was younger then Aragorn, soo... I don't need exact age anyway! Hee hee.

Another question, I know Aragorn had a son name Eldarion, would it be possible for him to have another, younger son as well? I've heard it talked about that it was mentioned Aragorn had more then one child, but the others are never really talked about or mentioned. Is it ever said that Eldarion was the only son? If so, that's okay, but I just wanted to check!

AND... I think I'm going to go with Legolas Lord of the Ithilien Elves, and them calling him Prince of Eryn Lasgalan or my Lord, and Faramir being called Prince of Ithilien and my Lord or my Prince by his people. Those sound nice, and they're less confusing, and according to all your lovely answers, both titles would then be accurate! YAY! I also agree that Thranduil would not like to leave his people, in fact I play on that opinion of mine in some later scenes of The Wall that Fell, so I'm glad you brought that up Thuriniel! Well THANKS again to everyone who has contributed to this thread! I've found out lots of really helpful information and I really appreciate it!!!!

Anna - Take your time with the email reply!! I completely understand how life is, I'm way behind on my email and forum checking as well! Plus, do you realize how long it took me to get that email to you in the first place! Hee hee... so just send it whenever you get the time! I appreciate your loads of help and don't want to rush you at all! I'll be patient!

[SpaceWeavil]

Doesn't it say somewhere, either in RoTK or the Appendices, that Aragorn and Arwen had loads of kiddies? I vaguely remember that.

[daw]

Faramir was born in 2983 TA. I got that from the Tale of Years. And I don't think that Arwen and Aragorn had another son because in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, we read that when she was returning to Lothlorien to die, she said "farewell to Eldarion and to her daughters."

Both things are in the appendixes to ROTK. I find the Tale of Years in particular to be enormously handy.