[Yavanie]

I am going to avail myself of that privelege stop reading this thread.

[ghettoelleth]

lmao, no no no no Viv, I just meant, let's all not be so defensive. Oh my honey, I'm so sorry, I wasn't directing that at you or anyone else. This is however, a prime example of why we shouldn't take this kind of discussion personally.

Dude, please don't take offense.

No one should take offense. It's not personal, I'm not twelve here.

All I'm saying is, we all have opinions, we all have a right to our opinions. Like, I have an aversion toward the immigration departmen. They like to take my undocumented family members back to Mexico. Doesn't mean they don't have a right to take them, doesn't mean that said family members shouldn't stop sneaking into the country. Just means, I don't like it. Having said that, my sister happens to be married to an Immigration officer whom I love to death. See Simba, it's the circle of life. Nothing personal. As I said in my original post, everyone's opinion has its foundation in personal perception and experience. Respect that and don't take it personal.

[Andreth]

I'm not picking apart anyone's statements and certainly am not whining about anything. I was pointing out some of the things in the last few posts that had irritated me and they were things that were wholly unnecessary. I think that was a wholly unnecessary statement and I view it as little more than name calling.

I've seen numerous statements in this forum that have pissed me off and I've held my tongue or tried to take a diplomatic approach. I chose not to this time to make a point and considering this response, I'd say it was a point well made. We are generally an open lot here, but there are always boundaries and limits and I think we've finally reached a few of them here.

I have plenty of political discussions in real life and I don't pull any punches. I discuss my views or argue my views, I even got arrested at a demonstration many years ago for punching a guy in the nose who got up in my face and yelled at me. While I look back on it now and see that it was an immature thing to do, it was still the *place* for something like that. OSA is not the place for things like this and I would never, never behave that way here or get into a full discussion of my political views, no matter how irritated I was at a comment. If you feel the need to discuss things like this, then Scribe has a wonderful idea of labeling those threads accordingly so the rest of us who don't want to read it don't have to.

I feel more than a little guilty about airing my complaints, because I do on one hand feel like I'm being unfair or intolerant, but on the other hand I know that I'm sick of coming over here and reading things that irk me and then holding my tongue about it. And there are others who feel the same way and there has been a reduced participation by some in the forums recently because of it. Frankly I don't want to see the forums here turn into a place where people either have to hold their tongues and walk away, or argue about things and denigrate to name calling and slander like I've seen on other lists.

There has to be something done to solve the problem and throwing around insults like calling people whiners or making smartass comments about threads being labeled Frodo's tea party certainly isn't going to solve anything.

Anna

PS Inglor, thank you for your response. I was very sorry to have to put you on the spot like that and meant to go back and edit my post to say that, but just after I postd I had to leave to pick my sons up and didn't have time. I apologize for using you as an example and I know you didn't mean it to be offensive. I just wanted to show how it looked from the other side of the fence sometimes. Thank you for not going off on me about it. I really, very much appreciated that.

[Viv]

[Andreth]

I believe I am going to follow Yavanie's wise example and exit this thread as well. This is exactly the kind of thing I *don't* come over here to do. I'm getting angry and more than likely overreacting and think it's best if I leave the rest of this discussion to those of you who can continue it on a more civil level. Though I have to say once again, Scribe, I think you guys do a great job of running this archive and I know you bust your asses to keep things on an even keel. None of this is the admin's fault and I'm sorry to have heaped more crap on your doorstep for you to deal with.

(And Viv, as usual, you are the voice of reason and state your ideas very eloquently. I wish more of us had your gift. mwah. )

[Scribe]

Yes it is a little sad but as we've seen, its easy for things to get out of hand even when I go to lunch for an hour and not check in.

Now no one in this forum was intending disrespect but that's Viv's point right there in a nut shell - the freedom of speech does not give anyone the right to be rude to another, no matter how passionate the belief. We'll tolerate a lot on this archive but we won't tolerate that. Inglor's statement was a point of view, not rude I felt and Andreth's response, similarly so, were healthy points of view. I personally like Maram's idea that OSA is not defined by national boundaries and so the politics of one group should not dominate any one thread or the forum in general.

If one should feel the need to discuss politics, religion or whatever since there are subjects that we all feel passionate about (don't get me started on the difference between raspberry and strawberry jam - that's just ugly.) you can take it to a separate thread and those who wish to continue discussing it can join you. That being said though, if it is taken to a separate thread, I would still expect a certain level of civility in everyone's conduct. Of course, if I hear anyone complaining about what's discussed in that thread, forgive me if I am not particularly sympathetic since my opinion on that is the same as when you read a story on incest and there were warnings, you know what you were getting into. The only thing the mods will comment on is one's conduct in that forum, meaning no name calling or such. Once again, there is no reason why healthy debate cannot be conducted in a civilised fashion.

I hope this helps clarify our position.

[sindohte]

Unlike others who may have more of a brain in their heads than me, I am still following along with this thread. Here's what I find interesting, this is supposed to be a Tolkien related website and forum. I would be a total hypocrite if I said that I only posted on the forums about Tolkien related stuff. The infamous Desert Island thread is ample proof of that fact. However, there is more energy and passion being devoted to whether or not we have the right to express our opinions freely or not, than there is attention being devoted to the Tolkien related threads.

The Hobbit reading group is still plugging along, but I would have thought there would have been more people interested and eager in sharing their thoughts. I finally gave up trying to keep the Silm reading group alive, because it was finally down to me and one other person who had started at the beginning.

I am not saying that you only have to come to the forums to broaden your knowledge of Tolkien, but that was why I initially dropped by. If I want to hear about politics, religion, or any other potentially hot button issue, all I need to do is turn on my TV, open up my newspaper, or start talking to someone on the street. However, where can I find intelligent discussion about Tolkien, fanfic, and writing in general? It would just be nice if folks could have as much enthusiasm about discussing Tolkien related issues.

[DarkElfChilde]

Personally, I think it's better to talk on what we love, and that is Tolkien, and help each other out if needed, and enjoy are time here rather than getting ourselves all worked up or whatnot with topics we naturally would or wouldn't agree on, but there's always live chat, other forums, or pm where you can do that...and hopefully have a good conversation with the people or person who enjoys talking about politics and other RL stuff. To me, this is the Internet, and I try (not always, and depending on the topic) to keep all of my RL out of the way and enjoy the net while I can at the same time. Before I ramble on too much than needed, I would lastly say this:

Have fun this is the Internet afterall.

- DEC

[ghettoelleth]

"I'm not picking apart anyone's statements" I didn't say YOU were
" and certainly am not whining about anything." And I didn't say YOU were.

I'm just saying NO ONE should whine. Not me, not Scribe, not Vana (poor thing, she's not even involved but I know she doesn't hit very hard) none of us, let's just converse. That goes for me and everyone else who is going to read a thread with this title. That's all I meant to say. I'm really sorry Andreth, sincerely, honest, this is my sincerest font, that you feel I am attacking you personally. I am NOT. I promise. And I do apologize if you misinterpreted the Frodo's tea party remark. I simply meant, the title of the thread is what it implies. I have nothing but respect for you and your opinion. What very very little I know of you from this board, your writing (I admire anyone with the guts to post a story in any forum, it's the scariest thing), your thoughtfulness in your remarks (I've seen your posts on other topics), make me respect you even more. That's all. That's ALSO my opinion. If anyone wants to say that I'm kissing ass...pfft... go ahead. Now, all this typing about chit chat is taking some of you away from writing (ROUS) so let's hug....big hug Andreth...and come together under the banner of Tolkien lovers. I too came to this site as I was tired of beating my head against other site doors trying to get assisstance on my first forray into writing. As I also said in my first post, this is the place to come if you want an open door.

Incidentally Sindh, I could have used you the other day when I was stuck on some Silm issues and everyone else wanted to talk about food.

If anyone wants me, I'll be surfing for elf porn right over there--->

[Scribe]

I still like to hear all your opinions and it has occured to me that we've only heard a small contingent of OSA's forum community so we shall leave this thread open for a little longer. However, I do have to say that the admins have always advocated free speech in the forum but free speech should never be use an excuse to be rude to each other. If there's one thing we've learnt from this thread is that even when you don't intend to offend you can and when the subjects discussed are politics or religion, its even easier to do so.

So please, the key word here is respect and tolerance. A choice of words might be prudent. I'm sure 'whining' was not meant to be offensive but there are better ways to put that point across. There's nothing wrong with saying what we feel but there's no reason why we cannot respect other people views by exercising tact and civility when we do it.

I thank everyone for their opinions in this threads, I think all around it was very useful. It certainly has given me some food for thought and hopefully it has done the same for you too.

[dolarabee]

[NancyBrooke]

[inglor]

[DragonEyes]

well I think the amount of monitoring that goes on is sufficient...I know it's not my place to judge but here's my two cents...A forum is alot like real life. I always get people saying things that make me upset whether they want it that way or not. Truth is words are always reflected personally, particularly when you hear them for the first time. There is not much sense in telling every one what to say and how to act cos they sure as hell will not follow. Sometimes our inner sense of right and wrong shows things in correct light other times the light is too narrow or too intense. That's all I guess..
*runs along*

[Texasgirl]