[SpaceWeavil]

Can anyone help me out and point me to a good source of information on Ringwraiths, Black Numenoreans, and Easterlings? I have already trawled through Unfinished Tales and gleaned as much as I can from that, but I'm having trouble tracking anything down in HoME, and wondered if anyone could point to a good volume / chapter that I could read.

One thing that I am interested to know - in the quiz section there was a question on how many of the Ringwraiths were originally Black Numenoreans, and I'd be interested to know where the answer came from, as I can't find that information in the books I've looked at so far, or in any general reference stuff.

PM me if you would prefer, but I would be very grateful if anyone could help

[ghettoelleth]

Space,

I was going through a bunch Easterling related stuff for an idea that I later dropped. I have it all marked here and online somewhere. I need to get a few things done, but as soon as I get back, I'll go through and get it for you. I shouldn't be long. Nothing on the other topics though, except I have (somewhere in this mess) a list of all known ring wraiths and their origins, some of it based on conjecture but interesting stuff, and some based on canon.

Jesxx

[SpaceWeavil]

Thanks. Purpose of this is a plot bunny that is just starting to come out of its warren I'm thinking of doing a 'before they were Ringwraiths' kind of a thing, but so far I have only been able to work on the Witch King and Khamul, as they're the only two I am certain about. Mouth of Sauron is going to make a little cameo as well, along with several mad people from Numenor, Sauron, some elves and stuff.

I only have a tiny bit of plot so far though, since I'm having trouble tracking down this information.

I was thinking of giving the Witch King a pet fell beast called Fluffy...

[SpaceWeavil]

I've just found one book that talks about the three Numenoreans becoming ringwraiths, but the book is one of those David Day efforts, and other parts of it strike me as wrong, so I don't know if I can trust that. He says the Black Numenoreans were given the Rings of Power after the downfall of Numenor, but I had always thought they were already on mainland ME before the island sunk, having gone off pilaging of their own accord, and seduced by Sauron at the same time as he tried to win over the elves. So am I wrong, or is Mr Day making this up? He also names two other non-Numenorean ringwraiths, but I can't find their names in the indexes of any of my books here, and I have another reference book that says Khamul is the only one of the nine to be given a proper name. So I am now very confused. (or rather, more confused than I was to start with).

Would be very grateful if anyone could clear this up for me.

[sindohte]

Don't trust David Day. In one of the Tolkien books that I have written by the obviously pot smoking Mr. Day, he lists Elrond as being married to Celeborn As far as I know, only 2 of the 9 Ring Wraiths were named. If I happen to run into the resident Annatar expert I will bug her for more info

[SpaceWeavil]

[Andreth]

The reference about three of the Nazgul being Numenoreans is somewhere in the Silmarillion. It says something about three of them being great lords of Numenor, or something to that effect. David Day, as usual, is full of crap. You're right, Tolkien only gives the actual name of one Nazgul, Khamul, and the title of one other, the Witch-king. Some people use the names Herumor and Fuinir for the Nazgul, but Tolkien just called them Black Numenoreans, not Nazgul.

There's not a whole lot of info about these guys and the majority of it you've probably already found if you've been going through UT and the Silm. I'll check through HoMe and see if I can't come up with anything else, but I don't remember there being anything major about them in there.

[SpaceWeavil]

Excellent, thanks! I just found the reference in the Silm, in a section I was reading about twenty minutes ago actually, so I must have missed it before. The two Haradrim were the ones Day cited as being Ringwraiths and I wondered why they sounded familiar, but I'd noted them down for research for Bodysnatcher. I'm not going to use them as Nazgul though because, as you say, it doesn't say they're Ringwraiths, they seem to be just chiefs of the Haradrim. I can actually see, in a weird way, how that book has the Nazgul getting the rings after the downfall then, if he's taking those two as being Nazgul, since they're mentioned in context of Sauron setting himself up after he escaped the drowning of Numenor. But I'm rambling now so I shall be quiet.

I don't know whether I prefer subjects where there's not a lot of information or not, since I like working canon facts into my stories, but if there aren't any facts to go on, it leaves more scope for the imagination I suppose.

[Andreth]

I have the same opinion - while I'd like to have known some more specifics about them, the lack of information makes it much easier to use them in stories. Just be careful of some of the information you find about them on the internet, especially the stuff that gives you the names of all Nine or specifics about their lives. IIRC, that info comes from things people made up for a role-playing game somewhere. But I've seen reviews where people are correcting a writer and claiming what they read on those RPG websites is what Tolkien said. Nope, sorry, it's not.

And I forgot to say earlier, you're right again - David Day is very mistaken about the Black Numenoreans not getting the rings until after the downfall of Numenor. There had been Numenoreans coming to ME since the days of Aldarion and even he did some crappy things in ME, like stripping all the lumber from the land around the Gwaltho. Besides, I believe it says the Nine first appeared in 2251 S.A., which was way before the Akallabeth. So yet again, David Day is wrong. In the words of Bugs Bunny, what a maroon.



PS Another word of warning - be careful how early you cast the Mouth of Sauron into your story. I wrote a short mid-Second Age Annatar story with the Mouth in it, but many months after I'd written it I realized that he couldn't have been around that early. In RotK it says that the Mouth didn't enter Sauron's service until the Dark Tower rose again, or something along those lines. Which I take as meaning that he could have been around as early as when Sauron returned after the fall of Numenor. I was too lazy to rewrite the story so I left it alone, but someone finally caught my mistake so that means I'll have to change the ending. Dammit.

[ghettoelleth]

Sheesh, now I remember why I dropped this idea.

Here's a list of some references to begin your trail Space. The pickings are slim I'm afraid but at least you'll get a reference point.

Easterlings - encyclopedia article about Easterlings. Free access, no registration needed. What does Easterlings mean... nemy-occupied' lands, as it were."



The Folk of Angmar

This is pretty good because he lists the passages in the books where he got his information, This is a list of his other essays.

Essays on Tolkien's Middle Earth

If I find anything else, I'll post you.

[ghettoelleth]

Now, why did those links not work?? Poo, I'll post them to you. By the way, you can make a pet named Fluffy,, My muse, the chain smoking Balrog. Name's Steve

[ellisk]

Well, here's my thoughts:

First, there's this from the Silm, which I imagine you've already got:

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.
The Silmarillion: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,"

and

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea. The Silmarillion AKALLABÊTH The Downfall of Númenor


That strikes me as the basics.

As for HoME, according to the index, there is one reference to the Black Numenoreans in The War of the Ring p 431. It only talks about the Mouth of Sauron:

It is told that he was a living man, who being captured as a youth became a servant of the Dark Tower and because of his cunning grew high in the Lord's favor...But it was subsequently changed to, 'But it is said that he was a renegade, son of a house of wise and noble men of Gondor, who becoming enamored of evil knowledge entered the service of the Dark Tower and because of his cunnin [and the fertile cruelty of his mind] [and servility] he grew ever higher in the Lord's favor.

As for the Ring Wraiths in general, they are all through HoME but mostly in The Return of the Shadow and the Treason of Isengard as characters--not much about their origins. I looked through those pages named in the index quickly (there's like a hundred of them) and all I saw was the story of the Nine's deeds to retrieve the Ring from Frodo etc.

Same thing for the Easterlings--lots of stories about them as they affected the kings of Gondor (especially in vol XII) but not a lot about their origins/culture/society/description etc. Sorry.

If you don't have a copy of the index for HoME (got mine from London for 12 about pounds), send me a PM and I will copy out the page references for HoME and what ever topic you want (Ring Wraiths, Easterlings, blah blah).

[SpaceWeavil]

In a word; Yay.



Thank you so much Ellisk. The Mouth of Sauron also features quite a lot in this and I had already sketched out a lot of his part, and it fits exactly with that passage from HoME. (Don't have that particular volume, so cool, thanks!)

I love it when a plan comes together....

Anyway, thanks everyone for all your help. Ghettoelleth, I got the links ok this morning in PM and will go have a look in a sec. Thanks for taking the trouble.

[Viv]

I think folks have already provided all the canon references you'd ever need, but if you're interested in inspiring and well-researched fic about the Witch-King and his buds, check out KhazarKhum's Cursed Queen of Angmar.

[SpaceWeavil]