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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject: The question of creation: hroa and fea |
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Is it possible that the hroa of the elves was made in Arda by the Valar and Maia as opposed to being physically crafted by Eru?
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Last edited by ghettoelleth on Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I am so sorry! This started under another thread and I moved it here so people could find it and throw in their opinion:
Is is Possible that the hroa of elves was made by the Ainur as opposed to being physically crafted by Eru?
That's my question, and again, sorry.
Okeee dokeee, I'm gonna take the deafening silence in here as an, "are you kidding? I don't have time to read War and Peace!" Quick edit, brb.
Okay Space, I took your advice and re-read Ainulindale as well as
Valaquenta and about 3,000 pages from various other books, poems, appendixes, and notes Tolkien jotted down on napkins. I'm not saying this is what Tolkien meant, I'm saying He could have meant. I just want to make sure that the opening is big enough to insert my story. So here goes:
My original question was, is there any specific remark made regarding the creation of the hroa of the elves?
1. We know that the fea comes from the secret fire. Eru makes all fea.
However, when Eru made the Ainur, they were complete without the hroa, they made their own fea. Just because elves were more dependent on the hroa, doesn’t mean the hroa was divine does it? No other being on the planets was. Not even beings with hroar, like the eagles and the dwarves. Couldn’t it just be a more permanent “raimant”?
2. I had 47 pages of Sil, HoME 4&10, The Unfinished Tales, Annals of Valinor, blah blah blah quotes in here to back me up. The abridged version? Could it not be possible that the “habitation” of the elves, spoken of in Ainulindale be construed as the hroa?
3. We know that creationism is possible for the Ainur. They created their own bodies from Arda and they were magnificent. Aule created the dwarves and Yavanna created the Ents. Eru gave them fea out of love for his Valar.
Then there is the whole Eau D' Morgoth factor.
4. It is never said that Eru made the hroa, it doesn’t say that he did not.
However, since all hroa was of Arda and ergo tainted by Sauron, it stands to reason that Eru may not want to have a hand in that.
5. There is also a quote,
"nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled", regarding the forming of Arda and all that was in it. Morgoth may have been able to defy the will of the Ainur, but not the will of Eru. Case in point.
“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.”
5. Tolkien never says that Eru ever came to Arda so how would he get the Arda to make the elves? The Ainur were eternally earthbound with the elves until the end of Arda once they crossed the veil into Ea.
6. And finally, I know I have heard or read that the hroa and the fea are interdependant but if that is true, what about the fea whose bodies have been killed? What about Glorfindel, he came back to earth and he looked just fine to me. Oh, wait, that was Arwen. Well, you know what I mean.
Well, there you have it, Probably Trouble, the cliff’s notes. If anyone here happens to be a Psych major and would like to use the original of this for their thesis, feel free.
(14th edit) My point here is, what do you guys think? Too far-fetched? 
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Last edited by ghettoelleth on Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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*Sneaks in the door and peaks around the corner....hmmm, nothing? Thinks to self, "how can i get someone to address this for me?" I know!*
So...it's..like...totally cool if Gandalf does "it"? 
But seriously, does no one want to take this on with me?
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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PT,
I know it's hard to wait for an answer when you have a story idea burning a hole in your brain, but it is a holiday weekend in the States. Folks are likely still recovering from the turkey on the dining room table and the turkeys in the shopping malls  I am trying to see what I can find for you, but the best person for the job is Andreth. However, it may take a while for her to get back to you with an answer because of RL stuff. And it might be easier for me and others to find the precise information you need, if you could tell us how does the question of the hroa relate specifically to your story. Not that you have to spill all the beans about your plot bunny, but just a little bit of information so that I/others can narrow down the search for information.
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abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I will make an attempt at this, but I'm afraid to say that I'm not certain exactly what it is you're asking. I think that's why nobody's answered this so far, is because it's not really clear what you're getting at with this. When I read this one and the first one, I thought that you were sharing references that you'd found, not asking a question. So clarifying what information you want to obtain with this would probably be the best place to start.
I'll try to address some of the things you've said though.
| ProbablyTruble wrote: | | My original question was, is there any specific remark made regarding the creation of the hroa of the elves? |
If you're asking whether or not there's a quote that tells how Eru made the bodies of Elves or Men, then no, to the best of my knowledge there's not. Since I haven't actively looked recently, I could be wrong, but I can't recall ever having read anything along those lines.
| Quote: | 1. We know that the fea comes from the secret fire. Eru makes all fea.
However, when Eru made the Ainur, they were complete without the hroa, they made their own fea. Just because elves were more dependent on the hroa, doesn’t mean the hroa was divine does it? No other being on the planets was. Not even beings with fea, like the eagles and the dwarves. Couldn’t it just be a more permanent “raimant”? |
I'm not certain exactly what you're getting at here, but a few points of correction: the Ainur didn't make their own spirits (fear). They were spirits in their natural form, when Eru created them. They were just the power of the spirit and didn't become Incarnate until they bound themselves to Arda after its creation.
The making of the body wasn't something that was Eru's power alone. Any of the Ainur bound to Arda could create bodies - they created their own bodies (i.e. forms, raiment) and Aule created the Dwarves' bodies. It was the creation of the *spirit* that was the power of Eru alone. The power of the spirit was where the actual energy of life lay, and Eru alone commanded the Imperishable Flame and so only he had the power to create sentient life. Yavanna and others among the Ainur created many living bodies, in creations like the kelvar and the olvar, and they had life, but they were not considered among the sentient life forms. They had no spirits that lived on after the bodies perished.
Aule created the bodies of the Dwarves, but it was Eru who put true life into them. Yavanna created her trees, but it was Eru who put the spirits into some of them to later become the Ents. It's not for certain whether or not the Eagles had spirits - Tolkien addresses this question somewhere in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring, but he never made a definite decision on it.
The bodies (hroa) of the Elves were by no means divine, and neither were their spirits (fea) for that matter. They weren't immortal, but long-lived, bound to Arda like the Valar and the Maiar. But unlike those Ainur, the Elves had no idea what would become of their spirits after the end of Arda. Whether or not they would go on to another place like the spirits of Men did, or if they would just cease to exist. The powers of the spirits of the Elves came from their longevity and the ability to learn to control the powers of their spirit, and also from the Elves who lived in Valinor for a time, then returned to Middle-earth where they intermingled with the Moriquendi who had remained in Middle-earth.
The Valar could create bodies - they were the ones who 'rehoused' the spirits of the deceased Elves after they left Mandos.
| Quote: | | 2. I had 47 pages of Sil, HoME 4&10, The Unfinished Tales, Annals of Valinor, blah blah blah quotes in here to back me up. The abridged version? Could it not be possible that the “habitation” of the elves, spoken of in Ainulindale be construed as the hroa? |
I'm going to have to go with no on that one. Somewhere in the first few pages of the Ainulindale (I don't have my book with me, sorry) it talks about the habitation of the Firstborn and the Secondborn, the habitation which Iluvatar chose for them, and it's pretty obvious that they're talking about the place they live, as in Arda. In fact, I think it specifically refers to the habitation of the Elves as Arda somewhere in there.
| Quote: | 3. We know that creationism is possible for the Ainur. They created their own bodies from Arda and they were magnificent. Aule created the dwarves and Yavanna created the Ents. Eru gave them fea out of love for his Valar.
Then there is the whole Eau D' Morgoth factor. |
I think this is along the lines of what I talked about earlier, about the Valar having the power to create bodies, just not spirits.
| Quote: | 4. It is never said that Eru made the hroa, it doesn’t say that he did not.
However, since all hroa was of Arda and ergo tainted by Sauron, it stands to reason that Eru may not want to have a hand in that. |
If you're talking about the bodies of the Elves and Men, then it's pretty clear that Eru created them, since none of the Ainur even saw them before their awakening in Arda after Eru had placed them [Men and Elves] there. Sauron didn't taint Arda, Morgoth did, when he disseminated his power into it, thereby making himself bound to his Incarnate form and unable to create another form. He didn't have enough power left to create another form for himself.
| Quote: | 5. There is also a quote,
"nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled", regarding the forming of Arda and all that was in it. Morgoth may have been able to defy the will of the Ainur, but not the will of Eru. Case in point.
“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.” |
Actually Morgoth did defy the will of Eru, and Eru got pretty irritated about it in the first two rounds of the Music, but by the third round it seemed that Eru, in his wisdom, instead of trying to fight the discord of Melkor, merely incorporated it into the overall plan so that it all fit in together, hence Eru's statement that Melkor's powers and thoughts stemmed from Eru's own mind, so therefore Melkor might throw things off track or mess things up, but in the end it would all work out for the good and only serve to better the plans Eru had in the first place.
| Quote: | | 5. Tolkien never says that Eru ever came to Arda so how would he get the Arda to make the elves? The Ainur were eternally earthbound with the elves until the end of Arda once they crossed the veil into Ea. |
As far as I know, Eru never physically entered Arda, but that doesn't mean his power couldn't affect it. He was Eru, the omnipotent and omniscient. He could exert his power in Arda well enough to destroy Numenor and sink it to the bottom of the ocean, then remove Valinor from the physical world and do away with the Straight Road. I would say he could handle creating the bodies of the Elves and Men from his realm outside Arda, too.
| Quote: | | 6. And finally, I know I have heard or read that the hroa and the fea are interdependant but if that is true, what about the fea whose bodies have been killed? What about Glorfindel, he came back to earth and he looked just fine to me. Oh, wait, that was Arwen. Well, you know what I mean. |
I don't know how interdependent the spirit and the body is in the Elves. I mean, the fire of the Elven spirits did serve to wear the physical body out over the years and make them 'fade', but I don't think the body made any pull on the spirit. I could interfere with certain aspects of the spirit, as it describes in the VT essay on Osanwe-kenta, that the physical body reduced the ability of being able to communicate mentally with one another.
But the spirit and the body were connected in a certain way in that when the spirit was rehoused they had to be put in an exact duplicate of the body they had before. I believe this is also described in Morgoth's Ring. This is why Tolkien did away with the idea of the Elves being literally reborn as children, because it would be a different body than the one they had before. So he changed it to the Valar using the memory of the spirit to create an exact duplicate of the body it occupied before.
But the spirit itself stayed in Mandos until it had been healed of what problem or damage, if any, it had incurred because of its death. Then when both Namo and the Elven spirit felt the spirit was ready, it was rehoused. Unless of course they'd pissed Manwe off, then Manwe could overrule any release and keep them in Mandos for as long as he wanted.
I hope that answered some of your questions.
Also, as to whether or not Gandalf could 'do it', he could but he would have to accept the consequences. In the Osanwe-kenta article I mentioned earlier, it also says that the Maiar who took earthly bodies, like those of Melian, Gandalf and Saruman, that the more they 'used' the body, the more they became attached to it, like eating, drinking. I would assume having sex, although that was never explicitly mentioned. This is Tolkien, after all. It does say that if they procreated, like Melian, they were pretty much stuck in that form. Gandalf obviously ate, drank and smoked in his physical form, but how much that bound him to his physical form, I don't know. Since Melian procreated in the earthly Elven form she took, she was bound to it. So obviously if she were to ever be rehoused, she would have to take the same form she had procreated in, just like the Elves have to have an identical copy of their former bodies. |
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much Andreth, you answered the burning question I needed resolved so I could begin. However, I have a couple more questions now. (By the way, sorry for all the blazing errors, my mind was flying.)
1. Is the hroa a lifeless form until it receives the fea? Weren't the dwarves moving right after they were made when Iluvitar spoke with Aule about what he had done? Or did Iluvitar put the fea in them before they were put to sleep?
2. " I don't think the body made any pull on the spirit."
I can't remember if I read, or someone said that the hroa and the fea were interdependant but I got the idea that the hroa affected the spirit from this quote from HoME 10, The Morgoth Element:
"they were none of them wholly free of him in their carnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits".
(that wasn't really a question, just an observation)
3. "Actually Morgoth did defy the will of Eru, and Eru got pretty irritated about"
I only meant that, had he wanted to, Eru could have put a stop to Melkor where the Maiar could not (couldn't he have?). Destroying him or never letting him enter Ea. But that all comes down to the sticky wicket of free will.
4. Besides Glorfindel, did any other elf return from Valinor after death?
Gosh, I learned alot from reading your answers that I didn't know. Especially about the binding of the fea to the body. Oh, and by the way, Gandalf's not getting any booty in my story, just a joke.
again, thanx for your time, I really appreciate it.
Jes
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: |
4. Besides Glorfindel, did any other elf return from Valinor after death?
Jes |
There is only one Elf in canon to be rehoused: Finrod. There is no other specific mention of another.
BTW, Glorfindel had to be clarified later in the Letters. And as far as I know, he is the only one to return to ME. Though there is some musings about the origins of Gildor. (but that is an entirely different 55 gallon drum of worms  )
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome for the answers. I'll see what I can tell you about the others.
| Quote: | | 1. Is the hroa a lifeless form until it receives the fea? Weren't the dwarves moving right after they were made when Iluvitar spoke with Aule about what he had done? Or did Iluvitar put the fea in them before they were put to sleep? |
It doesn't say what the bodies of Elves or Men were like before the spirit was put into them. Yes, the original Dwarves were up moving around but they were just like automatons, I guess. They didn't have any will of their own and could only do exactly what they were told. But IIRC, the original Dwarves' bodies were animated by Aule's power in some way.
| Quote: | 2. " I don't think the body made any pull on the spirit."
I can't remember if I read, or someone said that the hroa and the fea were interdependant but I got the idea that the hroa affected the spirit from this quote from HoME 10, The Morgoth Element:
"they were none of them wholly free of him in their carnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits".
(that wasn't really a question, just an observation) |
Yes, their bodies had an effect upon their spirits, but that's a lot different than the spirits being interdependent upon the bodies. The power Morgoth put into Arda affected everything, even Valinor, which the Valar originally thought was free of Morgoth's taint but were proven very wrong. Some of the Valar originally thought that the Elves brought that taint of evil with them when they came to Valinor, but later the Valar realized Morgoth's influence was in Arda as a whole. Some things only have a trace of his effect, like water and silver, and others have a greater amount, like gold.
But the body and the spirit weren't interdependent. That would signify that the spirit needed the body to survive, which it didn't, although the body needs the spirit to survive. But the body definitely did have an effect on the spirit, even the Maiar spirits when they were put into the flesh.
| Quote: | 3. "Actually Morgoth did defy the will of Eru, and Eru got pretty irritated about"
I only meant that, had he wanted to, Eru could have put a stop to Melkor where the Maiar could not (couldn't he have?). Destroying him or never letting him enter Ea. But that all comes down to the sticky wicket of free will. |
I'm not certain that Iluvatar could destroy Melkor, or more to the point, if he would. IIRC, somewhere in Myths Transformed, in Morgoth's Ring, it talks about how Sauron was stronger than Morgoth because he didn't suffer from the nihilistic madness that obsessed Morgoth. Morgoth didn't want to control the beings living in Arda, he wanted them destroyed, wiped out of existence, annihilated. But then it says what Morgoth didn't understand was that while he could destroy the bodily form, he could never destroy the spirit, the essence that made lives what they were. So perhaps Iluvatar couldn't have destroyed Morgoth, even if he had wanted to. He was essentially bound by his own rules of creation, perhaps.
| Quote: | | 4. Besides Glorfindel, did any other elf return from Valinor after death? |
Like Inglor pointed out, Finrod was the only other one mentioned. (Although the info on Glorfindel's return is in Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings, not Letters of Tolkien.) The Noldor who rebelled and those who participated in the kinslaying and died were never allowed to leave Mandos again, as punishment for their deeds. (I don't remember if this applied to all the exiled Noldor who died, or just the majority of them.) But Finrod and Glorfindel were allowed to be re-embodied because of their selfless sacrifices. Apparently Manwe felt they'd repaid their debts.
| Quote: | | Gosh, I learned alot from reading your answers that I didn't know. Especially about the binding of the fea to the body. Oh, and by the way, Gandalf's not getting any booty in my story, just a joke. |
Hey, I'd planned to have Gandalf get some in a story I was writing, although now it looks like I'll never get that story finished. Somebody needs to give the poor old guy some lovin'. |
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