[inglor]

I am not sure this belongs her but I am contemplating diving into a big "What If" and I need to ask a few questions from those more learned than I.

1. Were Finrod and Luthien too close to marry. (I've taken care of the Amarie problem) Finrod was Thingol's grandnephew (right?) making he and Luthien second cousins? (I'm not good at geneology stuff) Is this too close in the eyes of the Eldar?

2. I know this would cause an avalanche of problems and historical changes so if anyone is interested I'd love to hear some suggestions. The whole thing falls apart without a Silmaril to get past the Shadowy Sea and get the help of the Valar. But I have a theory about some of the battles turning out differently should Thingol and Nargothrond become involved. (Tolkien said that the treachery of Men is what turned the Nirnaeth) Doriath was armed to the teeth, had seasoned warriors and had been basically unmolested for hundreds of years. I know Melian cautioned against getting involved in the wars of the Noldor but I think Thingol might have a different opinion about helping his son-in-law and father of his grandchildren. And Thingol was known to ignore his wife's counsel on occasion...

I realize the blasphemy of such a project but it couldn't be much worse than Sauron the Misunderstood. (not a dig at Andreth, just an example of if a fic is well written, researched and logical, even a guy whose nicknames include The Abhorrent, The Deciever, and The Cruel, et al, can have fans and pervy fanciers). Not saying I'm in the same time zone as Andreth when it comes to skills.

This is a "what if" I have been pondering since I first read the Sil and I am seeking others opinions on it.

I know all the reasons it won't work, I am looking for reasons it might


TIA

Inglor

[mistressofbucklebury]

I don't have very much to add on a constructive level but I just wanted to saythat if you go ahead with I can't wait to give it a read.... I always like "what if's" and this one sounds a real doozy

Hope you work it out

MoB

[ghettoelleth]

Dang Inglor, just write. I'm already interested. By the way, where IS Andreth? She really picked the two worst days to be absent from school here. I think if anyone can give either of us the other side of our arguments, its going to be her.

Andreeeeeeth Come HOOOOOME

[Viv]

I can't imagine that second cousins would be too close... especially in those early generations of elves. So you're fairly safe there.

But I'm overwhelmed by the magnitude of such a what-if. You're setting yourself up for a *lot* of work. Of course, going by your previous stuff, I have complete confidence that you can do it. Hell, you might even set up such a compelling alternate universe that people will be writing fanfic of *your* world in the end.

Good luck!

[ghettoelleth]

I'm not the database that Space and Viv are so I actually had to look at LACE before I could say anything.

In the Sil. when Tolkien is talking about Idril and Maeglin, he says, "And the eldar wedded not with kin so near."

But in Lace, convoluted as it is, there's this:

"‘First cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin."

It doesn't say second cousins and even kinda gives the green light to first cousins who aren't close, doesn't it?

Then this:
"None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed half-sisters or half-brothers."

I've read that ten times now, and I believe that you're alright. I believe that does not include second cousins there. But my eyes cross when I read it so I could be wrong.

[Elennare]

It's a very complicated question, and one that even the Eldar might not have a united answer to. My logic runs thus (using the Silmarillion family trees):

The idea of a union between Idril and Maeglin (first cousins, 2 generations separated from a common ancestor) was wholely abhorrent. Thus, siblings and first cousins may not wed.

Luthien is daugther of Thingol, Finrod is grandson of of Elwe. Thus their common ancestor is a grandfather on Luthien's side and a great grandfather on Finrod's side (if they were properly second cousins their common ancestor should be great grandfather to them both). But this gives us a separation of 2 generations on one side and 3 generations on the other.

By the time we follow the tree down to Finrod's neice (Celebrian) and Luthien's great grandson (Elrond) the kinship is so slight as to be unremarked. They are separated from a common ancestor by 4 generations on one side and 5 on the other.

So, somewhere between a separation of 2 and 4/5 generations the union becomes acceptable. The question is, where does the line lie, and more importantly in my view, should we err on the side of caution or lenience when counting those generations.
My opinion is that if 2 generations is pointedly bad and 4 generations (taking the closest link of the pair) is unremarkably, then 3 generations is neutral and therefore acceptable.
But would the Eldar insist that Luthien and Finrod were separated by 2 generations (going by Finrod) or 3 (by Luthien)?


I know that this doesn't really answer your question, but hopefully it will give some ideas (and logical arguements for your eventual decisions)

[Andreth]

I'm still around here. Sorry, I've started a new job with a hospital in Detroit, and since I live in Oklahoma that's made for lots of problems getting started.

Anyway, short answer - no they're not too close. Like Viv pointed out, they're far enough removed not to worry about. Tolkien only states that the Elves had something against first cousins marrying. But beyond that it seems to be okay. There's a lot of intermarrying between families in the Silm, I do believe.

As far as the blasphemous aspect of it, who cares? If you put enough thought into your story and your plot line and actually craft it as opposed to just writing something for shock value, as a lot of people do, that's shot full of plot holes, then you can write the story. This is one of those what-if's that sounds like it would be fun to play around with and the reasoning you have above seems sound enough to me. Like you said, if I can make evil wannabe ruler of the world into a sexually appealing creature, then there's hope for many potentially blasphemous storylines. Khazar certainly turned the Witch King into a believably decent character who has a remarkable amount of sex appeal for someone who's technically undead. WK is the Man.

And as for your not being in the same time zone as my writing skills - puh-leeze. You're giving me far too much credit and yourself, not enough. You've proven that you're a good writer, so go write the damn story already.

[inglor]

I think I just sat down to Thanksgiving Dinner... by myself... with a plastic spork... This might take a while

[Havetoist]

[Elennare]

Umm, it made sense at the time
My SO says that the key is to have the family tree ("The descendants of Olwe and Elwe") on hand and stick your finger on the character pairs being mentioned.

At least we aren't trying to work out hobbit genealogies

[Havetoist]

E~ That's exactly what I need. A flow chart!!!

[Jillian]

Inglor, I think that Finrod and Luthien are sufficently not-related-closely-enough to cause a problem.

I also have the feeling that if Idril had fallen for her cousin, it *might* have allowable under L&C as her Mum and his Dad were 'far sundered in kin' as procribed.

So go for it, a lot of people would love to read such a fascinating sounding 'what if' fic!

[Elentari]

yep, go for it, bu all means. And give us a howler so we can all go peek.
I agree with Viv- it is kinda scary. But if you have a good idea you should follow your nose. I daresay it will be more than worth the AU.
Go you!