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Elrond & astrology (a bit lengthy)

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VanatheEverYoung



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amlee wrote:
Interesting thread going here.

After reading over it and being a true to the bone Leo myself I have to agree with Eomer, Gimli, and Merry being Leo's.

I would also have to put Sam in there also. He is loyal, stubborn in his beliefs, sensible, his courage is never in doubt and he has wit. All of which are traits of a Leo


Sam a Leo? I don't think so. No offense to you, being a Leo yourself. If I do offend you, feel free to write something nasty about clingy, insecure Cancers.

Leos tend to like the spotlight. Quite often, too much for their own good. Sam definately considers himself Frodo's servant. If he were a Leo, I don't think he would be so humble at the end of the Quest. He would want people to know how much he helped Frodo, and that without him, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed. But he doesn't. He takes a backseat to Frodo (who is also a reluctant hero). I think that puts Sam in the running for Cancer. He is loyal as you say, which is also an incredibly strong trait in Cancer. He prefers to stay one step out of the limelight. He is very emotional, sensitive, and sentimental. Notice how often he bursts into tears in the book. Especially where Elves and Bill the Pony is concerned. After the Quest, he settles down with Rosie and has 13 children. Cancer is the sign of Hearth and Home.
The stubborness, courage, and sensibility could come from Leo in a dominate position in other aspects of his chart. They could also come from Taurus, which I think is more likely.

Yavanie wrote:
Not being a true astrology buff, but the sons of Elrond must be geminis (by default) (not cliche, I am one - of a pair)


I'm always curious about twins, especially Geminis. Are you one half of the duality and your twin the other? Or are you both dual? Odd question, I know. My best friends are twins. They're Pisces. One twin is one half of the Pisces traits, and the other is the second half of Pisces traits. So, one of them is very mystical and the other set firmly in reality. I always say I can never write a story about Elladan and Elrohir because I would insert my friends into their characters. Elladan would constantly hum and Elrohir would be a dumb blonde.

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JaneDoe



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Eyborg about Sam being a Taurus. The gardening is a dead giveaway. Hobbits, in general, come across as very Taurean to me. They are very happy with their part of the world. Only the oddball yearns for a life outside the familiar. They like nature (at least it's gentler, more comfortable aspects; not the more brutal and extreme parts). Stable and sensible (like the earth). They embrace the simple life, one close to nature, to earth. They have a knack for growing things. They live in holes in the ground (or rather, hill). They're expert rock-tossers. They are fond of food. They also have lots of babies. Peaceful, stable, and bountiful, the Shire is a Taurean paradise.

I would venture that every Hobbit has a powerful Taurus influence. If not Taurus specifically, then at least one of the earth signs. That would explain why some "weirdo" Virgos and Capricorns would get restless in the Shire while simultaneously craving its stability. Virgos, being mutable, need a change of scene very once in a while. Capricorns cannot deny their ambitious streak and remain healthy.

Now, how's this for a monkeywrench: I think Smeagol/Gollum is a Gemini. Popular astrology tends to write off Gemini as superficial, scatter-brained, and emotionally detached. Lots of style but no substance. Stimulating yet inconsequential. Right up there with Virgo, Gemini is probably the most misunderstood sign of all. As you can see with Frodo, the consequences for ignoring the depths of Gemini can be destructive.

The key element of the Gemini nature is duality, or rather, multiplicity. Whatever you think you know about a particular Gemini, that is only one facet, or even two or three facets, of them. You never see the whole picture at one time. You see fragments. It is not deception. It's simply the nature of the thing. Just as you cannot see all three dimensions of an object at once (four, if you count time as one of the dimensions), you cannot see all facets of a Gemini's nature in one moment. A book lying flat on the ground right in front of you, for instance, is not hiding the fact that in addition to length and width, it also has height and pages of text. To see those other sides, you have to move around or manipulate it in some way. The same goes for Geminis. You have to be around them long enough to see those different sides or you have to deliberately set out to discover their other sides.

Ironically, this is the first thing that astrologers tend to ignore when describing and dealing with them. Being moody and tempermental is only a manifestation of the duality I mentioned. To be more precise, I should say multiple dimensions, but that is too lengthy, so we'll use duality or multiplicity instead. Now, to Gollum.

Gollum does display the traits popularly associated with Gemini, and the duality is very clear in the personalities of Smeagol and Gollum. Both of them are clever and dextrous. Both of them have a way with words; despite his strange grammar, his communication style is understandable and uniquely him; in the films, he also has a gift for sarcasm ("Fat Hobbit is always so polite."). Both of them know what to say to get what they want. Yet, the dualism is clear as well. Smeagol is "weak," Gollum "strong." Smeagol is evasive, Gollum deceptive. Smeagol is thoughtful and helpful, though he doesn't always show it in the best way; Gollum looks out only for himself. Smeagol has a child's naivete and joy; Gollum an adult's bitterness and cynicism. Smeagol is empathetic, understanding Frodo's burden; Gollum is calculating, seeking to take advantage of him.

Clues into Gollumn's Gemini nature first appears with the story of Smeagol and Deagol. Gemini, as the sign of the twins, has also been associated with the sibling relationship, and this is clearly evident between Smeagol and Deagol. Though specifics about the relationship between these two characters are sparse, we do understand that they were relatively close, perhaps like brothers. It would explain why his personality would fracture as dramatically as it did later on, given the guilt the act of murdering Deagol would have provoked, but that's another tangent. Nevertheless, the brief glimpse we have into their relationship shows that there is a sibling-like quality to the relationship. They come from the same strain of Hobbit. Their names rhyme (like twins?). In the film, when the One Ring is dragged up, we see something akin to sibling rivalry.

With the entrance of the One Ring, Smeagol, with his identity so dependent upon Deagol, is tempted with a very peculiar power (at least, peculiar compared to the dreams of power and glory that Men and Elves have): to no longer have the need for interacting with the outside world. This may seem like quite a logical leap, but if you look at what Smeagol actually does with the power of the Ring, it becomes clear. When he obtains the One Ring, he does nothing with it except perhaps become invisible (most likely to catch fish). For five hudnred years, he lived in the Misty Mountains with only himself for company. He does not try to rule over others. He does not seek any other power, being satisfied with the invisibility the Ring confers, mostly for catching fish. After all, who is he going to hide from? Certainly not himself. He does not feel alienated; he needs no one. Smeagol's mind is like two mirrors facing each other. Hate, love, and all other states normally expressed toward other people are instead endlessly reflected back at him. It relates only to itself. He is definitely mad. I would not be surprised if he were somehow dragged into our world and thrown into a psychiatric ward after being diagnosed with a severe case of autism and multiple personality disorder.

Now, why would someone take the most powerful artifact on the planet, something that he has killed to obtain, and go into isolation from it? Smeagol is not particularly strong-willed, so it's not like he can resist the One Ring or master its power. However, he must be getting something from having it, or it would not have such a hold on him. I believe that it was not something he wants from the Ring in particular, but from himself. Yet, it is only something he can obtain with the power of the Ring. Why do I think Smeagol wanted to be free from the need to relate to others? Because the only way I believe I would find five hundred years of seclusion bearable is to have no need for interaction. The need for being around others is so integral to the human condition (and I count all the Free Peoples as essentially human) that the only way I think it is possible to be rid of it is to want to be rid of it.

Now, the motive behind this desire is probably impossible to pinpoint. Maybe he was an outcast to begin with, and the only way to cure himself of the anguish this caused was to amputate his need for the approval of others. Maybe he saw himself as needy and dependent (especially on Deagol) and, hating this, sought to change this. Maybe he was afflicted with unrequited love. It's anybody's guess.

With Deagol's murder, half of Smeagol has been destroyed. There is a void now. Whether Smeagol was conscious of this void is inconclusive, but what happens next is very interesting. His psyche, no doubt assisted by the power of the Ring, creates another twin for him by fragmenting and spawning Gollum. Smeagol pours his guilt into the murderous, conniving Gollum. He hates this creation, this constant reminder of what he's done and what he's capable of, but he needs it to be complete. The Ring is precious to him because it is the key to his identity. True to the Gemini nature, there will always be two of Smeagol, whether it be projected onto another person like Deagol, an object like "the precious," or onto a facet of himself like Gollum.

"But wait," you say. "Why doesn't Smeagol get better when the Ring abandons him?" Good question. IMO, it's simply the nature of evil in Tolkien's world. Its corruptive influence is insiduous. Once a person has been touched by it, it never goes away. It is a wound that never heals and oftentimes festers even long after its source has left.
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Amlee



Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanatheEverYoung wrote:
Amlee wrote:
Interesting thread going here.

After reading over it and being a true to the bone Leo myself I have to agree with Eomer, Gimli, and Merry being Leo's.

I would also have to put Sam in there also. He is loyal, stubborn in his beliefs, sensible, his courage is never in doubt and he has wit. All of which are traits of a Leo


Sam a Leo? I don't think so. No offense to you, being a Leo yourself. If I do offend you, feel free to write something nasty about clingy, insecure Cancers.

Leos tend to like the spotlight. Quite often, too much for their own good. Sam definately considers himself Frodo's servant. If he were a Leo, I don't think he would be so humble at the end of the Quest. He would want people to know how much he helped Frodo, and that without him, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed. But he doesn't. He takes a backseat to Frodo (who is also a reluctant hero). I think that puts Sam in the running for Cancer. He is loyal as you say, which is also an incredibly strong trait in Cancer. He prefers to stay one step out of the limelight. He is very emotional, sensitive, and sentimental. Notice how often he bursts into tears in the book. Especially where Elves and Bill the Pony is concerned. After the Quest, he settles down with Rosie and has 13 children. Cancer is the sign of Hearth and Home.
The stubborness, courage, and sensibility could come from Leo in a dominate position in other aspects of his chart. They could also come from Taurus, which I think is more likely.


LOL don't worry about offending me. Very Happy Yes most Leo's like being in the limelight. As much as I am a Leo I don't like the limelight either. That is one thing I have never wanted. LOL just thinking about having people step up and notice me for something makes me break out in hives. I don't mind voicing my opinion (which Sam does often). But if others don't agree I will let it go. (which Sam does also). Many times you can see Sam not agreeing with what is going on and him talking to himself about it. I still see him as a Leo more than any of the others.
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Rocheron



Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: Seeking the fellowship of Men, Hobbits, Elves, and Dwarves.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanatheEverYoung wrote:


Yavanie wrote:
Not being a true astrology buff, but the sons of Elrond must be geminis (by default) (not cliche, I am one - of a pair)

I'm always curious about twins, especially Geminis. Are you one half of the duality and your twin the other? Or are you both dual?

JaneDoe wrote:
Now, how's this for a monkeywrench: I think Smeagol/Gollum is a Gemini. Popular astrology tends to write off Gemini as superficial, scatter-brained, and emotionally detached. Lots of style but no substance. Stimulating yet inconsequential. Right up there with Virgo, Gemini is probably the most misunderstood sign of all. As you can see with Frodo, the consequences for ignoring the depths of Gemini can be destructive.

The key element of the Gemini nature is duality, or rather, multiplicity. Whatever you think you know about a particular Gemini, that is only one facet, or even two or three facets, of them. You never see the whole picture at one time. You see fragments. It is not deception. It's simply the nature of the thing. Just as you cannot see all three dimensions of an object at once (four, if you count time as one of the dimensions), you cannot see all facets of a Gemini's nature in one moment. A book lying flat on the ground right in front of you, for instance, is not hiding the fact that in addition to length and width, it also has height and pages of text. To see those other sides, you have to move around or manipulate it in some way. The same goes for Geminis. You have to be around them long enough to see those different sides or you have to deliberately set out to discover their other sides.


IMHO. Rolling Eyes

Yavanie is definately the depths beyond the surface of the two layers of the gemini which are made up of Yavanie and her twin.

So, to use the book analogy. . .Yavanie is the story while her twin is the two-dimmensional cover you notice from afar.

Very Happy

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Rocheron



Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: Seeking the fellowship of Men, Hobbits, Elves, and Dwarves.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaneDoe wrote:

Theoden: Aries all the way. It's a telling sign when you are old and decrepit then completely recover once you get a sword in your hand.

Bormoir: Aries sounds about right. Warrior, check. Leader, check. Direct in words, check. More comfortable with action than contemplation, check. Intelligent despite hastiness, check. Since I agree with Faramir being a Libra, having Boromir be an Aries goes far to explain how different they are.


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