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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | The red eye was a symbol for Sauron, yes. In the trilogy we've got the mixed group of Orcs who took Merry and Pippin, some wearing the White Hand of Saruman and some wearing the Red Eye of Mordor. |
I've got to correct myself on this statement. I'm sorry - I was getting movieverse and bookverse mixed up. In the *movie* it was the White Hand of Saruman, in the *book* it was the rune for the letter 'S'. Ooops. My bad. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| sindohte wrote: | | And besides that, if I understand Tolkien's Ósanwe-kenta article correctly, Sauron would not be able to delve into the minds of other beings in that manner. |
Sind - I was thinking about this the other day and Sauron must have had some kind of mental contact with the Nazgul. When he realized Frodo was at Mt. Doom with the Ring, Sauron immediately contacted the Nazgul, who were fighting in the battle, to head for Mt. Doom and catch Frodo before he could destroy the Ring.
My understanding of osanwe-kenta has always been that it wasn't necessarily the ability to read others' minds, but the ability to pick up on their thoughts. Like a form of communication without speaking. The distance and the physical bodies would have been an impediment for Sauron to communicate with the Nazgul, but he had the added power of authority, which Tolkien says increases the osanwe-kenta ability.
Anyway, the point I was getting at is that you're right - Sauron obviously did have mental contact with the Nazgul. At least when they were close enough to him in Mordor.
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | I do remember seeing somewhere that in order for one of the Maiar to reproduce, they had to take the form they reproduced in as their permanent form. But damned if I can find that reference now. I've been looking for it for months now, so if anyone knows that reference and could tell me where it is, I would be very, very grateful. |
Ah-hah! I found it! I was going through the Osanwe-kenta article the other day while beta-ing Aewithen's story and I found the quote I had been looking for. (Note: this is the Vinyar Tengwar #41 version with the footnotes, not the #39 version without.)
It wasn't exactly like I'd remembered it, but close. So clearly while the Valar couldn't reproduce ex nihilo, the Maiar could. Hmmm.. interesting distinction between the two.  Also it talks about how Melkor became 'wedded' to his physical form because of his evil deeds, then mentions that some of his later servants did the same, obviously referring to Sauron.
So my take on this is that the reason Sauron could no longer assume a fair form after the destruction of Numenor is because he had done such an incredibly evil deed in that form (i.e. the destruction of Numenor and its peoples) that he was bound to it. And it couldn't have been too fair a form after it was destroyed along with Numenor. Anybody else have any thoughts about it? I'd be curious to hear.
Here's the quote if anyone else is interested in it:
"Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar).
"It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.
'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.) |
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1013
Location: I'm located somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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It's been a while since my last post in this thread, but I checked back here for a couple of things for my story.
Anyway...moving on...
Recently, one of my reviewers mentioned that I should move the story out of the AU section, but it's an AU, or maybe slightly AU because of some of the things that will be in future chapters, like Sauron but he's not going to be good looking at all. So, I don't know what to do yet.
Help poor DEC?
- DEC
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Having just had a little look over it again (while since I read your fic, must admit)...This is the one where the elves are returning from Valinor, right? That, to me, is certainly AU. That's my tuppence' worth anyway.
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SecretKeeper
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject: ... |
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Well Sauron did evil deeds and from what I've gathered, though vaguely, I would think that after all of those things he wouldn't be pretty at all. More ugly, brutish and well, evil.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| SecretKeeper wrote: | | Well Sauron did evil deeds and from what I've gathered, though vaguely, I would think that after all of those things he wouldn't be pretty at all. More ugly, brutish and well, evil. |
Sauron wasn't able to make himself pleasant looking after the Downfall of Numenor, as far as I know.
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1013
Location: I'm located somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | SecretKeeper wrote: | | Well Sauron did evil deeds and from what I've gathered, though vaguely, I would think that after all of those things he wouldn't be pretty at all. More ugly, brutish and well, evil. |
Sauron wasn't able to make himself pleasant looking after the Downfall of Numenor, as far as I know. |
Yeah, your both right. 
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Jillian
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: |
As for Amandil and his pals, I believe they made it to Eressea if not Valinor. I would hazard a guess that his pleas and intervention is why Elendil and his sons made it out of there with all their ships intact. Considering the destructions leveled against Numenor, they would have needed some help getting out of there. |
Now, that makes a great deal of sense. If they left Numenor on a day when the most far-sighted could see Eressea on good day from the mast of a tall ship, then there's no reason why they couldn't get there. I have a perculiar feeling Ulmo might have helped the descendant of Tuor get there too. Assuming they got there, and then were able to successfully plead with the Valar to save Elendil and his fleet from destruction, what happened then? Under the favour of the Valar, did they live out their lives in Eressea? |
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