[SecretKeeper]

I kow that it is mentioned that Five Main Istari were sent to Middle-earth to gather information and guide others from following the darkness.

Gandalf (Olorin?), Saruman (Curumo), Ragadast and the two Blue Wizards were sent by the Valar to Middle-earth for that task. I was wondering if anyone had any more information on the Istari specifically about the Blue Wizards and of the time they arrived upon Arda with their tasks set before them. Is it not around the end of the second age or the beginning of the third age?

[sindohte]

There is some nice information on that subject in Tolkien's Unfinished Tales and if I recall correctly in at least one location in Tolkien's Letters. Since I am at work, I unfortunately cannot look it up for you. Hopefully that will at least get you pointed in the right direction.

[SecretKeeper]

Thanks. I've read Unfinished Tales and I've read abot the two blue wizards and found the section on the Istari far too short. I've also read the Silmarillion and found a lot about Gandalf but I need specifics like is it true that Pallando and A-something (forget their names) have changed their names and did they fulfill what they set out to do? Even so, any valuable information no matter how vague will help me with my fic. Thanks again, I appreciate it.

[VanatheEverYoung]

All of that can be found in Unfinished Tales. Try reading the notes at the end in addition to the actual text.

Alatar and Pallando are their names in Valinor. Gandalf was not called Olorin in Middle-earth. He was given a name by the different races. So, Alatar and Pallando probably never used those names in Middle-earth. Tolkien said they went to the East. Those men probably gave them Eastern names. He also said that they did not complete their tasks. In Unfinished Tales he says that they probably started magical "cults" in the East. I'll have to check this reference, but I think I remember that the Istari came to Middle-earth around 1000 Third Age.

[SecretKeeper]

I went to the 'Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library' found at www.lotrlibrary.com and found this article:

http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp. It mentions the book 'The Peoples of Middle Earth' and the "last writings"...I was wondering if anyone has this book and can confirm whether or not that information is true. I'm looking for information online and I know that many facts online isn't true. So added ammunition in the knowledge department is helpful. Thanks for helping!

[Andreth]

I've answered this question a few times so far, so I'll just be lazy and give you the URL to the threads instead of retyping it again. Good luck.

http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=806

http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=471&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[SecretKeeper]

Thanks Andreth and Vana and Sindohte.

[SecretKeeper]

Just thought of something. For the peoples of the East, they had their own language, if I'm correct in assuming that. Is it closer to Adunac (I'm not sure about that spelling) or something else?

[VanatheEverYoung]

I'm by no means an expert on languages, but I don't think the Eastern or Southern languages would be at all like Westron or Aduniac. Take a look at some of the Easterling names listed in the Silmarillion (Ulfang, Bor, Brodda). They're very different than Edain names (Turin, Barahir). Someone on another thread said that a good way to find names for Easterlings is to use ancient Babylonian or Sumerian names. I think that's a good suggestion. If you want a long, rambling explanation, you can PM me. It would be terribly , so I don't want to post it here.

[Andreth]

Actually the language of the Easterlings would resemble Adunaic. There's an essay in Peoples of Middle-earth called Of Dwarves and Men (which sadly doesn't get the attention it deserves), and it describes how Khudzul, the Dwarves' language, affected other races and how other races affected the Dwarves' use of Khudzul. It says: "In ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth and there they met Mortal men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them; whence it comes that of the tongues of the Easterlings, many show kinship with the Dwarf speech rather than the speeches of the Elves." Then goes on to explain how the Dwarves interaction (mostly the Longbeards) with the Men of the First Age influenced their language, which would later be taken to Numenor and developed into Adunaic. Names like Turin and Barahir aren't Westron. Very few words of Westron are known, but what few there are almost exactly like Adunaic. In fact, the Westron word for Westron is Aduni.

Which all adds up to the speech of the Easterlings resembling Adunaic. I know quite a few people who have used Adunaic names for Easterling characters, but it's not written in stone.

Ancient Babylonian and Sumerian were supposedly what Tolkien based the Black Speech on, though that's never been proven. But the resemblance in the words is certainly there. I've used Sumerian to expand the Black Speech dictionary in some of my stories. I wouldn't see anything wrong with using those words for Easterling names though, if you wanted.

Trying to keep track of all the languages and what is connected with what is very confusing sometimes. I still get things mixed up with the Elvish languages.

[SecretKeeper]

Ah, I see. Don't worry this all ties in with my question on the Blue Istari. If I could assume that they went to the East to stop the worshipping of the Dark Lords, etc. The wizards would need to have the ability to use the language of the Easterlings. Hmm....curiouser and curiouser. Thanks!

[VanatheEverYoung]

As foolish as it may seem, I'm going to attempt to contradict Andreth.

I did know that the speech of Men and Dwarves is closely related. I don't know how I forgot that. BUT, doesn't that refer to the time when Men first awoke? So, in the First Age, maybe Eastern languages and Aduniac were similar. Now, this next bit of logic depends on a giant assumption. Tell me if there is anything to disprove my theory. Did the Easterlings return East after Beleriand was sunk? If they did, my logic will make sense. If not, I'm going to sound like a real idiot.

The Blue Wizards don't enter into Middle-earth until 1000 Third Age. By that time, the Easterlings and Southrons have been "home" for 4000 years (roughly). Since languages are not stagnent, Eastern speech would have changed dramatically. Think about Old English and modern English. That's how I think Eastern languages would have changed. Also, the influence of Mordor would have changed their speech a lot. Black Speech was the official language of Mordor. Orcs never learned it for whatever reason (too stupid, too many, etc.), but I'll bet Men in service to Sauron did learn it. Mostly notably would be the military leaders who would also have a lot of clout in their home countries. So, it's possible that Black Speech was second language, kind of like Spanish in the US. Over time, that would have influence Eastern speech.

Now, for my most dramtic leap ... from Harad to Mesopotamia. Tolkien said in Letters that the time between the downfall of Barad-dur and modern day (I can only assume mid-20th century) was about 6,000 years. 5,000 years ago, Mesopotamia is established. Tolkien also said that Mordor was at about the same latitude as Ancient Troy, so Turkey-ish (and Minas Tirith was at the latitude as Florence.) So, if Mordor is around Turkey, Rhun in east (Georgia, Armeia) and Harad is south of Turkey (Syria, Iraq, Iran). That's Mesopotamia. As you said, Black Speech is based on ancient Babylonian and Sumerian. Those are major languages in Mesopotamia. And, there is only a 1,000 year difference between Haradrim and Mesopotamians.

So, that's my theory on why I use Babylonian names. If it's faulty logic, please tell me. I'm always ready to learn from my mistakes ... and I make a lot of them.

[Andreth]

As I said above, I don't see anything wrong with using Sumerian or Babylonian. As for your conjecture about the connection between the Haradrim and the inhabitants of places like Ur, well, that's a far-reaching historical discussion that I don't have time to get into at the moment. Although two things I will point out - Akkadian/Babylonian/Sumerian were all cuneiform, i.e. written languages, while the languages of the Easterlings were not. And 1,000 years is a very long time - 1,000 years ago Europe was in the Dark Ages. 1,000 years ago the United States didn't even exist. The Native Americans were here, and their culture was far different from ours in modern times, as was their language. Just a few thoughts there. If you want to use Babylonian for the names, then there's nothing wrong with that, but all the rest is conjecture.

Unfortunately, I don't know how contradicting any of this is. What SecretKeeper asked is whether or not the language of the Easterlings was close to Adunaic, and it is. What few words we know of some of the Easterling languages (and I gather from Tolkien's remarks, there was more than one) it does resemble Adunaic. Incánus/Inkâ-nus/Inkâ-nush, mûmak/mûmakil, Khand, Variag - those all resemble both Adunaic and Khudzul. Obviously the language of the Easterlings hadn't progressed that much by the Third Age (as those are all Third Age words), although neither did Khudzul or Adunaic. Both remained fairly constant throughout the Ages.

Just to clarify - Adunaic was the language of Numenor. Aduni or Westron was the Mannish language of the First Age upon which Adunaic was based. The language on Numenor changed very little, if any, during the thousands of years it existed, where as the language of the Edain in Middle-earth changed dramatically. When the sailors of Numenor met with Edain leaders 600 years after Numenor was founded, they recognized very little of one another's language.

The quote I mentioned above wasn't referring to the time when Men first awoke. Men were around for quite a while in the First Age before Finrod found them. The Dwarves had contact with them before this, and then continued to throughout the course of the First Age. If you read the essay I mentioned in Peoples of Middle-earth, it explains it fairly well.

And the Orcs of Barad-dur did use the Black Speech, albeit a debased form. Orkish language is an entirely different matter, as there was no common base and Orcs had no respect for language, but from everything I've seen, those who served directly under Sauron in and around Barad-Dur knew at least some form of the Black Speech. We don't know exactly what Sauron based the Black Speech on when he developed it, but there are some resemblances to both Elvish and languages like Khudzul/Adnunaic in there.

Hope that helped answer your question.

[Andreth]

[VanatheEverYoung]

I always thought that's what he was alluding to in Unfinished Tales when he says "founders of secret cults and "magic" traditions." And then, of course, my brain went crazy with plot bunnies

A sequel to LOTR? I didn't know Tolkien started a sequel. I'll bet New Line wished he would have wrote it