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Viv
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Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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Location: Texas
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 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: Peeve: Laying the Smack-down on reviewers |
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Lately I've noticed some reviewers being needled and ridiculed here on OSA. Yes, reviewers. Folks, that just isn't right.
Reviewers take the time to read a story. Mind you, a story that has been set out for public consumption, and if the reviewer didn't like it, the reviewer has every right to say so. That's what reviews are *for*. If a writer is too fragile to handle gently worded concrit, that writer needs to wait a few revision cycles before she puts her stuff out for strangers to read.
So long as the concrit isn't personal or flame-ish, subsequent reviewers have no business telling earlier reviewers of a story where to get off.
If you see a review that looks like a flame, report it. If it really gets your goat, PM the reviewer and start your own little bitch-session in private, where things like that belong. Don't sit there and slam the reviewer right there on the review page.
And that is my Peeve of the Day. grr. |
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SilverMoonLady
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 1201
Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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zoink! Yes, everyone would be best off if they could be either polite and mature in their disagreeing over a review, or at least taking it up in private....
Good call.
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Word. 
- DEC
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Peeve: Laying the Smack-down on reviewers |
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| Viv wrote: | Lately I've noticed some reviewers being needled and ridiculed here on OSA. Yes, reviewers. Folks, that just isn't right.
Reviewers take the time to read a story. Mind you, a story that has been set out for public consumption, and if the reviewer didn't like it, the reviewer has every right to say so. That's what reviews are *for*. If a writer is too fragile to handle gently worded concrit, that writer needs to wait a few revision cycles before she puts her stuff out for strangers to read.
So long as the concrit isn't personal or flame-ish, subsequent reviewers have no business telling earlier reviewers of a story where to get off.
If you see a review that looks like a flame, report it. If it really gets your goat, PM the reviewer and start your own little bitch-session in private, where things like that belong. Don't sit there and slam the reviewer right there on the review page.
And that is my Peeve of the Day. grr. |
Just in case that was me, (since I did say something in a review that referred to a previous one, though it wasn't intended as a slight on the previous reviewer or anything) I've edited the last review I left. Didn't think that it might be taken as an insult to the other person, but best to be on the safe side.
Now I've done that, I can safely say that this annoys me as well. I've had it happen to me on a story here, and I just deleted the review I left. The review was actually very positive, save one comment that was concrit, meant to be helpful for the writer. Then two seconds later another review appeared saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with the story and they didn't understand how anyone could say that etc, picking on the thing I had commented on and making out as if only an imbecile would have a problem with it. At the time it kind of smacked of a 'buddy' system, where the author had got her friend to answer and stand up for her. I don't know if that is true, but that's the impression it gave.
Result - I haven't read any more of that story and haven't offered any more comments, positive or otherwise. What's the point? When according to her friend, my opinion is worth less than nothing?
So yeah, it is annoying. If I did it inadvertantly today then I apologise, and it seriously wasn't meant that way. (Like I said I deleted that comment from the review).
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Alassante
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't like the story and you feel you cannot make a "constructive" review, you should just not review it at all. That is what I do. I have read some HORRIBLE stories and I just don't review them.
That being said, it is tough when you first read a review that less than glowing ("Oh my God, you are the best writer ever!") but it does make you go back and re-read or re-work your story (which is what I have been doing with my three posted stories) Heck, Space caught my OC who was an elf saying "Life is short." After I read her review I was like 'DUH! how could I have missed that one.' Needless to say I went back and changed that comment! At any rate, you do have to develop a thicker skin but most of my reviewers have said the good with the bad so I don't have complaints.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | If you don't like the story and you feel you cannot make a "constructive" review, you should just not review it at all. That is what I do. I have read some HORRIBLE stories and I just don't review them.
That being said, it is tough when you first read a review that less than glowing ("Oh my God, you are the best writer ever!") but it does make you go back and re-read or re-work your story (which is what I have been doing with my three posted stories) Heck, Space caught my OC who was an elf saying "Life is short." After I read her review I was like 'DUH! how could I have missed that one.' Needless to say I went back and changed that comment! At any rate, you do have to develop a thicker skin but most of my reviewers have said the good with the bad so I don't have complaints. |
I sometimes get embarrassed by reviews, if they point out glaring mistakes that I should have seen and I feel like a right pilchard, but I wouldn't squeal at the reviewer for it. How else would I have seen it and fixed it? I certainly don't want the concrit to stop, as it's the only way to know what you're doing wrong.
Like for instance, I have been wondering for a while what's lacking in my writing. I knew it was bad, but hadn't quite pinned down what it was, and I got a very nicely phrased concrit that actually said what I had been thinking and confirmed what I thought was wrong. So now I know for sure and I can stop worrying about what is wrong and instead think of how to fix it.
I do sometimes get annoyed when there are patronising reviews left, especially since a lot of those pointing out 'mistakes' actually are wrong, i.e. the facts the reviewer's throwing at you aren't right. Even then I wouldn't bite someone's head off. I tend to either ignore it or send a polite note giving a source for my facts, and have never had an argument over it. I think there's always a danger of misinterpreting things on the internet and in reviews. What I read as being insulting and patronising might not be taken that way by another reader, and might not have been intended that way. So best to err on the side of caution and be nice, in my experience.
I actually knew someone once though that swore her head off at me for asking her to clarify something she said in a review of my stories (not on this archive). She said my characterisations were 'soulless' and I asked her which stories she meant, or if this was a general impression from all my work, at which point she told me to, well go and do something anatomically impossible to myself, and how dare I question her on what she said, she was entitled to an opinion. So that has kind of made me wary about contacting reviewers 
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Alassante
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | at which point she told me to, well go and do something anatomically impossible to myself |
What a very polite way to say that! I kinda like that. 
If you write stories like you write your posts, I am sure they are perfectly wonderful. I will have read them now!
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Alassante
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Just a question and this might be a little  so forgive me if you will.
Why do people not leave reviews? I have one story with almost 400 hits and only 2-3 reviews. Should I feel that maybe no one liked it enough to review it or is that just being paranoid? Not that I have EVER been paranoid.  But seriously, I would love reviews as long as they are not flamers of course but I think some people just do not bother reviewing and I am not sure why that is.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | SpaceWeavil wrote: | | at which point she told me to, well go and do something anatomically impossible to myself |
What a very polite way to say that! I kinda like that.
If you write stories like you write your posts, I am sure they are perfectly wonderful. |
My stories are as long-winded as my posts, certainly Actually that same woman told me as much. Said why did I need to put in so much detail about the setting (which was 1980s England) since, as an American, it didn't matter a 'bleep' to her anyway. Nice woman, really. Sad that I'm not still in contact with her.
As for people not reviewing, I think there's been a couple of threads on this throughout the forum. People have different reasons. For me, I try to review whenever I read something, but I do have days when I'm just not in the mood and not in the right mindset to come up with something intelligible. On those days I tend to leave the story and go back to it later to review.
To begin with though, I just didn't feel qualified to review. I mean, I am by no means a great writer. I make mistakes in my stories that would make publishers weep So I didn't feel like I was in any position to review. Also I was wary (mainly because of my experiences with my good friend I mentioned above) of bad reactions to reviews, as in the subject of this thread. It took a while to get to know people and know that most were receptive or appreciative of concrit.
As for the hit thing, I tend not to pay much attention to that. I think Robbie said that some search engines knock it up, so I don't know if it's an accurate measure of a fic's popularity. I did once work out the statistics though. Like, for example, my Witch King story has on average 1in every 34 people reviewing, if you go by the hit counter. That means nothing really, but I worked it out in a 'bored' moment. (I once sat and worked out how many times I'd driven through Trafalgar Square since I started work, or how many Americans I'd taken round London. I do these things when I'm bored  )
I've heard a lot of people say they've had bad experiences giving feedback though, and getting replies telling them where to go and what they can do with their review etc. Which is a shame, because it puts people off reviewing stories for those of us who live off the things 
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Yavanie
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding hits and reviews:
Hits: sometimes I only get to read a chapter or two of a long fic, so many multiple hits just to get through a story. Likwise, if I really like it or want to leave a more in depth review, I read it multiple times, hence, more hits from a single viewer.
Reviews: see some above. Don't always have time to review when I read. Also like to think about things, especially if it has something that really gets to me (in any way), so that I can leave more than just "I liked it, loved it, hated it, thought it was okay". I'm sure writer like to hear that but I am also sure they'd like to know what I liked or disliked or what it was that made me think. Soooo, sometimes it takes me a while to review.
Also if I've already left a review and the story gets updated, sometimes I just PM the author and let them know what I like and to encourage them to keep writing or just let them know I caught a typo (don't need to put that in a review!). That way, an author has a choice to change it or leave it and nobody thinks anybody's getting picked on!
anyway, not a writer but have done some editing (like college English Lit papers and friend's Master's Thesis), but do so enjoy reading these fanfics. I would really hate someone to stop writing just because they only hear negative stuff because no one bothers to say the good stuff too.
I also try really hard to take into account the writers level of expertise. We have some really great writers here who really know their Tolkien universe intimately (can even speak the languages) and other writers whose first language may not be English or it is one of their first few pieces or they write in movie verse and not from a well immmersed perspective and I try to tailor my criticism to the writers level.
Someday some of these writers my actually submit something to a publisher and at that level they need to be prepared for some harsh criticism. Again, put that in the story summary and ask for that kind of scrutiny and I'm sure you will be well rewarded. But then, nobody here is doing this for money, just their own pleasure (okay we enjoy it too), sooooo, I feel that the criticism needs to be constructive but their is no need to nitpick every comma and typo to death here. My reviews are also more in depth for writers I have corresponded privately with as I feel I know them better and don't have to walk on eggshells so much to let them know how a work affected me.
okay way more than what you ever wanted. And if I've reviewed your stories be assured I was honest in my review. Telling someone what they want to hear when it isn't how you really feel accomplishes little (unless you're related to them and have to play nice with them at family reunions).
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NancyBrooke
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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May I add a pet peeve in here? related, though.
What bugs me is when a reviewer leaves a tip, like "you mispelled "Aragorn" in the second paragraph", or "please fix the formatting," then never goes back to change that when the problem has been addressed by the author.
I have a couple of stories where attached reviews still say "fix those typos" even when it was all cleared up months ago! 
Do you know you have the power to revise, even delete reviews?!
Okay, I'm done now.
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Icon by Alassante! Wow!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | | What bugs me is when a reviewer leaves a tip, like "you mispelled "Aragorn" in the second paragraph", or "please fix the formatting," then never goes back to change that when the problem has been addressed by the author. |
I normally go back and change my reviews (edit that part out) when I notice something has been fixed and you know someone got angry at me for doing that. Bizarre. 
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SecretKeeper
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know as a reviewer and a writer you have to find a middle-ground.
I mean when I leave a review to a story, I either gush over it or gush over it with some sort of opinion....I guess the word is evasive? I'm being evasive when a fic isn't at its best and when I review I try to be nice when giving an opinion. Really hard to give constructive criticism when you're not an expert in grammar or spelling...
When you're a writer, it's either shrug it off and laugh when a reviewer says that you're work is crappy. If it's only say five reviews out a hundred that says your stuff sucks then majority rules. It's not their thing, no need to fret. Just that 5% of the population just doesn't like what you've done and what's 5% compared with 95%...it just pushes you to be better. You know how celebrities have 'haters' and 'fans'? You know how the celebs (usually musicians) are at award shows and recieve an award? They usually reply with: "I want to thank the fans because without them I wouldn't be here getting this honourable award." or something like that, it's like that for me (in a way). If I'm writing something and I post it up...I wait for the reviews before posting another chapter (which is saddening  I think I had childhood issues about acceptance that has traversed on to my teenage to adulthood). I mean I guess without the reviews, I feel as if I'm not doing the best that I can and I need to keep working at it. Yeah that's what I think.
I'm sorry if I don't make sense and if I'm off topic...:'( I'm sick. Well I hope that's a bit inspirational...
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Alassante
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| SecretKeeper wrote: |
If I'm writing something and I post it up...I wait for the reviews before posting another chapter (which is saddening I think I had childhood issues about acceptance that has traversed on to my teenage to adulthood). I mean I guess without the reviews, I feel as if I'm not doing the best that I can and I need to keep working at it. Yeah that's what I think. |
Bad part of that plan is I had a fan fiction on another site where I basically said "Review or I am not going to bother to finish this" (Not quite so rude of course) As my hit count tripled, I had one review!! ONE REVIEW So I left them hanging. hehe
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | If you don't like the story and you feel you cannot make a "constructive" review, you should just not review it at all. That is what I do. I have read some HORRIBLE stories and I just don't review them. |
We've kind of been over that in other threads. 
As a writer, all reviews, *especially* the concrit reviews, tickle me pink. I even saved the flame, because durn it, somebody took the time to read my story all the way through and hated it enough to say something about it. That's kind of flattering.
As a reader ... well, I edit things for a living. Therefore I'm egotistical enough to believe that the feedback I give, even very general things, might help a writer improve. Now, I know that's assuming that the writer wants to improve, and yes, I have heard back from fic writers that well, they think they're pretty perfect already and would I just throw my "you might want to revisit that spelling error in the title" spewing self off a cliff. Those writers sincerely make me want to never read fic again.
But if I read something and it has promise, yes, I'll review. I believe that is a sign of respect for the author. |
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