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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Wow. I've managed to turn this thread into an ego-stroke. Sorry about that. But, thanks Viv and Space.
| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | Also, IMO, people who do go against the grain and leave their own reviews have deserve kudos. I know I have chickened out in reviewing a story (Or at least I am still working out what I will say if I do review) because I thought it was terrible but everyone else really liked it. |
I think this goes back to the originial thread topic. It's kind of like crowd mentality. If you go against it, you get trampled. Luckily, I'm a trouble-maker  You'll never read a review (or receive one from me) in which I am not honest.
I have to give an example because I've been hording it since I read the story. It's just too funny, and I want to laugh today.
Glorfindel stomped around Rivendell pouting and peeping at naked elleth. I thought for sure one of the 20+ reviewers would have pointed out that Glorfindel was a freaking *balrog-slayer* not an elfling. But no. The reviews were full of "OMG!!! Fantastic! Write more!" And what was I supposed to say? "Umm ... Glorfindel would never pull Elrond's hair, and I doubt those two particular Elf-lords would get into a fist fight"? Because all of the groupies would throw a fit.
It's sad that reviewers are doing this on OSA. This is a community where I feel comfortable being honest.
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"All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| VanatheEverYoung wrote: |
I think this goes back to the originial thread topic. It's kind of like crowd mentality. If you go against it, you get trampled. Luckily, I'm a trouble-maker You'll never read a review (or receive one from me) in which I am not honest.
I have to give an example because I've been hording it since I read the story. It's just too funny, and I want to laugh today.
Glorfindel stomped around Rivendell pouting and peeping at naked elleth. I thought for sure one of the 20+ reviewers would have pointed out that Glorfindel was a freaking *balrog-slayer* not an elfling. But no. The reviews were full of "OMG!!! Fantastic! Write more!" And what was I supposed to say? "Umm ... Glorfindel would never pull Elrond's hair, and I doubt those two particular Elf-lords would get into a fist fight"? Because all of the groupies would throw a fit.
It's sad that reviewers are doing this on OSA. This is a community where I feel comfortable being honest. |
That's very similar to a few I've come across. A lot of the time I hold back from reviewing as I think 'is it supposed to be funny, and I'm just not getting the joke, therefore will I just sound like a stuffy sad person if I say I don't like it?' I know I am very canon-ish in my reading. Personally I much prefer a good gap-filler to AU stuff or Femme Fatale, and I haven't read a lot of 'humour' stories that I've liked. So I don't know if it's just personal taste stopping me liking the story, as opposed to something technical. If I see that it's got awful grammar or something, I know what to suggest in a review, but am I justified in reviewing a story just if I don't happen to like the portrayal of a certain character, for example? What help does it give the author if I say, 'personally I don't like this portrayal of Elrond / Erestor / whoever in fan fic'? Am I better off just not reviewing? That is the one thing that confuses me, and that is the instances when I will read something and maybe not review.
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Alassante
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | Alassante wrote: | | I had a fan fiction on another site where I basically said "Review or I am not going to bother to finish this" (Not quite so rude of course) As my hit count tripled, I had one review!! ONE REVIEW So I left them hanging. hehe |
Blackmailing can be a double-edged sword. The moment some see "Review or I won't write any more!" they immediately stop reading. I'm one of those readers. I've ditched some pretty good stories because of that.
Writers provide a service in fanficdom. Readers also provide a service. The trick is for writers and readers to *respect* each other. Neither service is greater than the other. |
Please understand that I was not rude in any way in the request for reviews. I added it as the PS on the last page of the story basically saying that if people were interested I would continue to write the story. I was not rude about it or attempting to blackmail anyone into doing a review. I just didn't know if anyone cared about the ending so I asked for a response to the first few chapters. Once I didn't receive any, I felt that maybe the first chapters did not interest them enough to continue reading. I will eventually go back and finish it but I am not even sure that anyone cares. But I will finish it for the one reviewer that did care.
I totally respect my readers. If I did not care what they thought I would not bother posting it out there for them to read; I would just write it and keep it for myself. I have posted stories before and pulled them back off the website because I felt like they were not good enough for the public yet and until I fixed them I didn't want anyone to read them. I write because I enjoy it. I post my stories because I want others to read them and hopefully enjoy them. If they do not I hope they will review it and give me advice as to what I can do better. If I do not get any reviews I will keep writing and posting them. When I see a story that has 1000 hits but only has one review I am disappointed about the lack of reviews but thrilled that so many people are taking the time to read it. If I get a review that I feel is harsh or unfair, I would feel upset but I would never attack the reviewer because that is just not me and I feel it is wrong.
This site is more versed with LOTR than the other site I use. I post my stories here that I feel are my best work and invite reviews. On the other site, I post stories I feel like people who frequent that site will love. On the other site, they are like "elf sex - yummy-what the heck is canon and will it affect the smut levels?" When I post here, I get constructive criticism and some compliments. On the other site I get responses like "the sex scene was hot" or "love the OC - not annoying". Here I get comments like "despite the fact that so and so was portrayed in the movie in such and such a manner, he was actually like such and such. If you read whatever book, it has more details." or something to that effect. Information that I need to know not just comments on the story or in my case usually the SMUT content. In the past few days I have taken my favorite stories including some on here and tried to fix what the reviewer did not agree with (language too modern, paragraphs too long, etc) If I did not care what the reviewers thought I would not bother to make these changes.
I hope that I have not offended anyone with my comments but they are only my opinion.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | What help does it give the author if I say, 'personally I don't like this portrayal of Elrond / Erestor / whoever in fan fic'? Am I better off just not reviewing? That is the one thing that confuses me, and that is the instances when I will read something and maybe not review. |
But if no one ever speaks up and says "Dude, Denethor isn't an evil incestuous rapist!" those fics will persist, and the unfortunate writers will persist in believing that they're writing great stuff. And then they'll write still *more* evil!Denethor stories.
I'd rather be heckled to my face than heckled behind my back. At least if a reviewer is honest enough to say "Okay story, but Aragorn/Eowyn just isn't a pairing I can stomach," I can keep that in the back of my mind when writing future fics (not that I'm going to take that one down; I really really like the notion of Aragorn nekkid). |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | Please understand that I was not rude in any way in the request for reviews. I added it as the PS on the last page of the story basically saying that if people were interested I would continue to write the story. I was not rude about it or attempting to blackmail anyone into doing a review. I just didn't know if anyone cared about the ending so I asked for a response to the first few chapters. |
Hmmmm.... good point. I've never really thought about that before. I guess if your WIP is a very interactive experience with readers hanging on updates and stuff, that kind of give and take might be a good thing. Maybe I should stop being so judgemental, eh? 
I think I'm just overly spiteful, and I tend to overreact to manipulation, even mild manipulation. |
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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: |
If I see that it's got awful grammar or something, I know what to suggest in a review, but am I justified in reviewing a story just if I don't happen to like the portrayal of a certain character, for example? What help does it give the author if I say, 'personally I don't like this portrayal of Elrond / Erestor / whoever in fan fic'? Am I better off just not reviewing? That is the one thing that confuses me, and that is the instances when I will read something and maybe not review. |
Absolutely justified! You're canon-minded, and therefore, have a good idea about characters' personalities. For example, quite a lot of people think Haldir is just a cocky marchwarden. You and I both use him as a main character, and write him different than the fanon myth (and yet, strangely unalike ...) However, readers of the book know that is not the case. (For those of you who haven't read, Haldir gets poetic about Lothlorien.) He has underlying motivations and feelings, he's well-traveled, etc. So, if I read a story where Haldir tortures inturders, I have a right to explain why he would not (I think) do that. The same is true about any character, however major or supporting he or she is.
On another thread, we discussed pet peeves in fanfic. A lot of people responded with answers like Whimpy Elrond, Evil Denethor, Love-sick Legolas. Those are all character portrayal problems. If they're such peeves for us, shouldn't we say that?
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Last edited by VanatheEverYoung on Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: |
But if no one ever speaks up and says "Dude, Denethor isn't an evil incestuous rapist!" those fics will persist, and the unfortunate writers will persist in believing that they're writing great stuff. And then they'll write still *more* evil!Denethor stories.
I'd rather be heckled to my face than heckled behind my back. At least if a reviewer is honest enough to say "Okay story, but Aragorn/Eowyn just isn't a pairing I can stomach," I can keep that in the back of my mind when writing future fics (not that I'm going to take that one down; I really really like the notion of Aragorn nekkid). |
I've just never felt sure of myself enough to review things like that, which is a fault in me, not the author or review system. Most of the time I don't have anything in canon to back myself up (like the Denethor thing). I just disagree with that portrayal, and quite often I disagree with the majority 'preferred' portrayal.
Actually the main one I came across like that fits in all the stuff we've talked about - everyone else reviewing has raved about it, the character's portrayal just jarred with me, and also, from some forum interaction and PMs I get the impression that the author thinks I am evil incarnate for some reason, so if I give an honest review, I imagine I will be in for more sly remarks and allusions as to the quality of my work, which I don't need.
Gosh, I am moaning a lot today, aren't I? That's because I've had another fight with Royal Mail. Always puts me in a bad mood
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| VanatheEverYoung wrote: | | On another thread, we discussed pet peeves in fanfic. A lot of people responded with answers like Whimpy Elrond, Evil Denethor, Love-sick Legolas. Those are all character portrayal problems. If they're such peeves for us, shouldn't we say that? |
Actually that is a point. There were certain comments made on that thread which a few people (including myself) thought referred to a particular story, and at the time I remember thinking I would have preferred someone to voice their opinion in a review, rather than airing it like that in the forum. So I wouldn't mind getting a review where someone, for example, said they thought my Elrond in 'Alliance' was whimpy, because I can then respond to that with my reasons for making the portrayal that way (I try to have reasons why my characters behave the way they do). If they don't agree with the approach I've used, that doesn't mean that I am wrong, but they might well come up with something that is persuasive the other way.
So really I should review properly then, if I go by that logic.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | Actually the main one I came across like that fits in all the stuff we've talked about - everyone else reviewing has raved about it, the character's portrayal just jarred with me, and also, from some forum interaction and PMs I get the impression that the author thinks I am evil incarnate for some reason, so if I give an honest review, I imagine I will be in for more sly remarks and allusions as to the quality of my work, which I don't need. |
Which brings us (quite elegantly) back to the thread topic: Reviewers should be encouraged to express their opinions and shouldn't have to fear retribution if their opinion differs from others'.
If people have made you feel that you can't express your opinions, that makes me irritated, to say the least. If someone has taken a review-page spat to the personal level and insulted your work because they don't like a review you've left, that is a serious thing and should be reported to the admins of the site, I think. |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | SpaceWeavil wrote: | | Actually the main one I came across like that fits in all the stuff we've talked about - everyone else reviewing has raved about it, the character's portrayal just jarred with me, and also, from some forum interaction and PMs I get the impression that the author thinks I am evil incarnate for some reason, so if I give an honest review, I imagine I will be in for more sly remarks and allusions as to the quality of my work, which I don't need. |
Which brings us (quite elegantly) back to the thread topic: Reviewers should be encouraged to express their opinions and shouldn't have to fear retribution if their opinion differs from others'.
If people have made you feel that you can't express your opinions, that makes me irritated, to say the least. If someone has taken a review-page spat to the personal level and insulted your work because they don't like a review you've left, that is a serious thing and should be reported to the admins of the site, I think. |
Actually I don't know what started the animosity in that particular situation, although I have a vague suspicion. It didn't start in the review pages in that case. I think it was something someone else said about me in the forum, which has dented this person's ego a bit. Complicated  But it does put me off reviewing that person's stuff, because it's really not my cup of earl grey, but I just think if I leave a negative review, it will stir up more hassle.
This thread has been very good though. I actually feel like I could leave a review on a story I just disagree with (as opposed to technical stuff) which I didn't before. It's all about confidence, for me, in reviewing. I mean when I first joined this site, I was too chicken even to point out typos. 
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Alassante
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| VanatheEverYoung wrote: |
Absolutely justified! You're canon-minded, and therefore, have a good idea about characters' personalities. For example, quite a lot of people think Haldir is just a cocky marchwarden. You and I both use him as a main character, and write him different than the fanon myth (and yet, strangely unalike ...) However, readers of the book know that is not the case. (For those of you who haven't read, Haldir gets poetic about Lothlorien.) He has underlying motivations and feelings, he's well-traveled, etc. So, if I read a story where Haldir tortures inturders, I have a right to explain why he would not (I think) do that. The same is true about any character, however major or supporting he or she is. |
On the other hand if the story is under movie verse or AU then Haldir could be portrayed that way. In FOTR, I thought he was cocky. In TT, I thought he was more honorable than cocky. But I do think a lot of things is interpretation. You and I could read or watch the same thing and come away with different opinions of the person's personality.
I personally had different feelings about certain characters than others so my opinion would carry over to what I had written. Say I though Frodo was wimpy or Merry was bossy (I did not actually think this) then if I wrote a story and they were in it, it would color what I wrote about them. I am not going to think that Legolas was a fierce fighter than write him as a wimp that runs from confrontations. I could say that Sam was the bravest of the hobbits and you could think that Merry was. In my story, Sam would be show as the braver one and you could argue that it was not accuratlly portrayed. However, that being said, I do not think that turning a hero into a villian (Haldir as a rapist) is fair UNLESS there is a specific reason such as an AU story that has the ring not being detroyed and it has corrupted a character making him evil. But unless there are underlying factors it is hard to read for me personally. That may be just me. I read one story (not on this site) where Aragorn raped his nanny twice after Arwen died (after WOTR). The reason for his personality change was never discussed. Of course, Boromir was alive as well so I think the story was meant to be AU. It was still tough for me to see Aragorn as a rapist with no reason but that is my opinion. I did review explaining that I felt like there should be an explanation for his change of personality.
Bottom line - I agree reviewers should be honest with their reviews and even give their personal opinion (ex. I think you made Haldir too different from the cannon character) and not have to worry about getting shredded by the writers. However I think that reviewers should be fair and respectful in their comments. I would rather hear - your portrayal of so and so was not very cannon than hear -you are a terrible writer and you need to stop posting. I personally have gotten SHREDDED on another site where the person basically told me I was a horrible person for subjecting them to this crappy story. I was shocked that someone would be so personal in their attack and I was tempted to write them an email telling them to kiss my a**. But I didn't. So far on this site, I have never gotten a review that offended me. Even if people didn't agree with the way I had written a character or the style of writing I used, everyone has been respectful in their remarks and I appreciate their honesty.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | I personally have gotten SHREDDED on another site where the person basically told me I was a horrible person for subjecting them to this crappy story. I was shocked that someone would be so personal in their attack and I was tempted to write them an email telling them to kiss my a**. But I didn't. So far on this site, I have never gotten a review that offended me. Even if people didn't agree with the way I had written a character or the style of writing I used, everyone has been respectful in their remarks and I appreciate their honesty. |
Good thing, too. Flaming is against the rules on OSA, so if you get a review that is a personal attack or constitutes flamage, report it to the admins. They are very adept in dealing with flamers. |
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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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There I go again, not fully explaining myself. 
I think too often writers hide behind AU labels. They write an OOC, then to cover it up, slap on an AU label. In some cases, the AU is backed by reasons. For example, Eomer is an abusive husband because Eowyn beat the crap out of him when he was younger and now he has "issues" (That is not meant to be serious). So, it may be interpretation, but it may not be. I certainly wouldn't argue with a writer over who is the bravest hobbit as long as the writer kept all the hobbits in character. I.E. If Sam is the brave one, Merry isn't a whimp. But, if the story is listed as a Drama, Glorfindel and Elrond are not going to get into a fist fight and pull each other's hair. Even AU stories need to be logical. So, I will review character portrayal in AU stories. The AU label doesn't give a writer free range.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| VanatheEverYoung wrote: | There I go again, not fully explaining myself.
I think too often writers hide behind AU labels. They write an OOC, then to cover it up, slap on an AU label. In some cases, the AU is backed by reasons. For example, Eomer is an abusive husband because Eowyn beat the crap out of him when he was younger and now he has "issues" (That is not meant to be serious). So, it may be interpretation, but it may not be. I certainly wouldn't argue with a writer over who is the bravest hobbit as long as the writer kept all the hobbits in character. I.E. If Sam is the brave one, Merry isn't a whimp. But, if the story is listed as a Drama, Glorfindel and Elrond are not going to get into a fist fight and pull each other's hair. Even AU stories need to be logical. So, I will review character portrayal in AU stories. The AU label doesn't give a writer free range. |
I must admit that is one thing I've noticed in some reviews, this attitude of 'it's AU, so why are you complaining?', but I agree with Vana. Even AU, IMO, should have some reasoning behind it and some depth to the characters. For instance, if I read a story where Elrond is an evil rapist (and I have read a couple of those), then I want a jolly good reason why he would behave like that. Those stories I've read failed to do that. I much prefer a well thought out AU with a decent 'what-if' premise than something labelled AU just so as the author can do whatever he/she likes with the characters and doesn't rely on textual evidence. I understand though that a lot of people feel differently on this, but this is my opinion.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | I must admit that is one thing I've noticed in some reviews, this attitude of 'it's AU, so why are you complaining?', but I agree with Vana. Even AU, IMO, should have some reasoning behind it and some depth to the characters. For instance, if I read a story where Elrond is an evil rapist (and I have read a couple of those), then I want a jolly good reason why he would behave like that. Those stories I've read failed to do that. I much prefer a well thought out AU with a decent 'what-if' premise than something labelled AU just so as the author can do whatever he/she likes with the characters and doesn't rely on textual evidence. I understand though that a lot of people feel differently on this, but this is my opinion. |
It isn't just your opinion. It's part of the submission guidelines of the site:
| Quote: | ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (AU)
When writing AU's please ensure that your changes are intentional alterations of canonical plot or characters, usually stated in an author's note at the beginning of a story and not a blatant attempt to completely disregard the source material. While it is acceptable for some things to be altered, say for instance a 'what if Frodo didn't give up the ring' story, a fic that has Legolas running off to join the Orcs to be their head waiter, is not. |
The AU archive is not a respository for whatever non-Tolkien-related randomness the author wants to shove out there. If anybody sees the AU category being mis-used, the admins would probably be happy to hear about it. After all, this is a quality-controlled site,. |
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