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Silvae
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
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Location: Lyon, France
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 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: Fall of Gondolin. |
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I'm currently writing a fanfic including Legolas - but I'm stuck about his age (no! What else is new?). Having read The Book of Lost Tales (but not the Silm), I know he appears in The Fall of Gondolin as an already fully grown Elf; the question is, when did the Fall of Gondolin occur? Pre- First Age? First Age? As he is generally portrayed as being the youngest Elf in Middle-Earth, maybe there's a tidbit of common knowledge out there I've never heard?
Thanx for any answers! 
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Fall of Gondolin occured First Age 510 (approx. 7000 years before LoTR) and the Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas, son of Thranduil are not the same elf. The Prof once stated that he like to reuse names and the Fall was one of his first ME writings, it is my opinion (and others) that they are 2 different elves, unlike Glorfindel (again this is my opinion). Though there is some discussion about the Two Glorfindels, there are definitely 2 Legolases. The main reason being that Thranduil NEVER set foot in Gondolin.
As to the Legolas of Mirkwood's age, anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand. Sorry I can't help you with that, I have never ever seen anything more than a guess at his age. The Prof left that out...
Inglor
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Silvae
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
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Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks; I was confused because (again this is subject to caution, the Lost Tales basically being a draft of the Silm... ) in my edition, in the commentary by Christopher Tolkien, Legolas Greenleaf's appearance in the Fall is described as "prophetic" and he goes on to quote a description of the Legolas Greenleaf from LoTR. Weird. Anyway, now I've got hold of someone knowledgeable I might as well profit from it - when was Dale founded, approximately?
Again thank you![/quote]
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Tolkien explicitly said in one of his letters (don't remember off the top of my head which one and I don't have that book with me) that the Legolas in the First Age is not the same Legolas of the Fellowship.
As for Legolas' age, we only have clues in canon, no firm answers. For example, Legolas says:
"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us." The King of the Golden Hall, TTT.
and
It [Fangorn] is very, very old," said the Elf. "So old that I almost feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory." The White Rider, TTT.
Does the first quote mean he has seen the leaves fall 500 times? The second quote seems to imply Legolas feels 'old' in the presence of the mortals--the oldest amongst them being Aragorn.
If we want to speculate, we can work backwards a bit. Tolkien seems to waffle a little in Unfinished Tales about whether it was Oropher or Thranduil that led the Sindarin elves east, but at no point is Legolas mentioned in relation to that journey so it is likely he was not alive then. That would put his birth after 750 of Second Age when HoME says those elves went east or even as late as between 1000-1600 when Barad-dur was completed--UT says the Sindarin moved before the completeion of Barad-dur.
Many people also argue that since Legolas is not mentioned in the stories of the Last Alliance, though Oropher and Thranduil both are, that he was not born or at least not old enough to participate in that War, placing his birth in the Third Age.
It also doesn't seem that Legolas knew Lothlorien well:
"It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land whence we wandered in ages long ago," said Legolas, "but we hear that Lórien is not yet deserted, for there is a secret power here that holds evil from the land. Nevertheless its folk are seldom seen, and maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern border." Lothlórien, FOTR.
I tend to think that he never traveled to Lorien and that he was not alive (or at least very young) when the Balrog came in Third Age 1981. I say that because when he sings of Nimrodel, he seems to be singing a song that he learned, not about an event that he lived through:
"The voice of Legolas faltered, and the song ceased. 'I cannot sing any more,' he said. 'That is but a part, for I have forgotten much... " Lothlórien, FOTR.
If that is the case, then he was born after 1981 TA.
Some people think it is logical that Legolas was born during the Watchful Peace (which lasted between 2063 and 2460 Third Age) since LaCE says that Elves only have children in times of peace. That would jive with the quote from Legolas saying he'd seen the leaves fall 500 times.
He does seem unburdened by the weight of long memory while traveling with the Fellowship. He is merry in the snow on Caradhras and is fascinated by the Huorn-forest and wants to ride into it to get a closer look at the strange trees. He makes a game of battle with Gimli.
I tend to think of him as younger (under 1000.) But it is open to any argument that you want to build for his history I would think.
In the end though, Legolas' age is a mystery.
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Last edited by ellisk on Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Silvae
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'm starting to get this. Any particular reason why I should read the Silm, or is it the same as BoLT in a more logical form?
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ellisk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvae wrote: | when was Dale founded, approximately?
Again thank you! |
That is another tough one. In the Hobbit, Thorin Oakenshield states that Men built the town of Dale sometime after his grandfather Thror became King Under the Mountain in 2590.
But, we know that Men, know as the Northmen, inhabited Rhovanion very early. Here is a quote from UT:
They were a remnant of the Northmen, who had formerly been a numerous and powerful confederation of peoples living in the wide plains between Mirkwood and the River Running, great breeders of horses and riders renowned for their skill and endurance, though their settled homes were in the eaves of the Forest, and especially in the East Bight, which had largely been made by their felling of trees.
These Northmen were descendants of the same race of Men as those who in the First Age passed into the West of Middle-earth and became the allies of the Eldar in their wars with Morgoth.
They were therefore from afar off kinsmen of the Dúnedain or Númenóreans, and there was great friendship between
them and the people of Gondor. They were in fact a bulwark of Gondor,keeping its northern and eastern frontiers from invasion; though that was not fully realised by the Kings until the bulwark was weakened and at last destroyed. The waning of the Northmen of Rhovanion began with the Great Plague, which appeared there in the winter of the year 1635 and soon spread to Gondor. In Gondor the mortality was great especially among those who dwelt in cities. It was greater in Rhovanion, for though its people lived mostly in the open and had no great cities, the Plague came with a cold winter when horses and men were driven into shelter and their low wooden houses and stables were thronged; moreover they were little skilled in the arts of healing and medicine, of which much was still known in Gondor, preserved from the wisdom of Númenor. When the Plague passed it is said that more than half of the foil of Rhovanion had perished, and of their horses also. They were slow to recover; but their weakness was not tested for a long time. No doubt the people further east had been equally afflicted, so that the enemies of Gondor came chiefly; from the south or over sea. But when the invasions of the Wainriders began (TA 1851)and involved Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years(ended in 1944 with the Battle of the Camp), the Northmen bore the brunt of the first assaults.King Narmacil II took a great army north into the plains south of Mirkwood,and gathered all that he could of the scattered remnants of the Northmen; but he was defeated, and himself fell in battle(TA 1856). The remnant of his army retreated over the Dagorlad into Ithilien, and Gondor abandoned all lands east of the Anduin save Ithilien.
As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin), some took refuge in Gondor, and others were gathered by Marhwini son of Marhari (who fell in the rearguard action after the Battle of the Plains). Passing north between Mirkwood and Anduin they settled in the Vales of Anduin, where they were joined by many fugitives who came through the Forest. This was the beginning of the Éothéod.
This mention of Dale seems to imply it was already in existance before 1856.
Once again, you can interpret when the city was actually founded. I tend to think it was there for a very long time (certainly throughout the Third Age if not the Second) but was of greater or lesser importance throughout history.
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Ultima ratio regum (The Last Argument of Kings)--engraved on all French cannons by order of Louis XIV |
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvae wrote: | | OK, I'm starting to get this. Any particular reason why I should read the Silm, or is it the same as BoLT in a more logical form? |
I cannot recommend the Silm strongly enough. If you want to understand the motivations and conflicts and history of the different houses and cultures of elves, the Silm is required reading. If you want to know the history of the Numenoreans, the Silm is required reading. It is THE source of info for the First and Second Ages. I love it.
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It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.
Ultima ratio regum (The Last Argument of Kings)--engraved on all French cannons by order of Louis XIV |
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