[SpaceWeavil]

I know that the Valar took spouses. But I've never heard mention of them having baby Valar, am I right? So would I be right in saying that the Maiar might not generally procreate either - like Melian would be an exception, since she went to ME? For the usual Maiar still in Valinor, who were not necessarily physical or at least weren't physical beings all the time, would the idea of having babies be a bit weird?

[Yavanie]

didn't Melian "take on an elven form" (I think I read that somewhere), like Gandalf taking on the form of an old man?

[mistressofbucklebury]

I was reading the Book of Lost Tales (I think) and it said that originally the maia were supposed to be children of the vala... so that the maia we associate with a certain vala (can't think of any off the top of my head.... to much wine ) would be their children.

It also said that Tolkien abandoned that idea

Hope this make sense

[SpaceWeavil]

[Yavanie]

[SpaceWeavil]

[SpaceWeavil]

[Andreth]

The Maiar could reproduce if they wanted. Whether they wanted to or were allowed to seems to be a different question all together.

The most relevant information I've found about it is in the author's notes of the essay, Osanwe-Kenta. If you want a copy of the entire essay, just drop me an email and I'll email it to you.

Here's the note about the axani regarding the hroar of the Ainur:



6. Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.

"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things.

Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.

'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed".

(Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

[SpaceWeavil]

Thanks Andreth. I think this was the essay I remembered seeing before and what I was thinking of. That all works for the purposes of this story, because the idea of having offspring is just going to be an 'idea' - no one's actually going to go as far as to produce little baby Maiar.

Whereabouts is the essay from? Is it in the letters or HoME somewhere?

[Andreth]

That's the fun of vague information - you can use in on many different levels. I think Tolkien set this up for the Maiar to be able to reproduced in order to make it feasible for Melian to bear a child. So on one hand you have the foundation that the Maiar are able to have children and so it's possible some of them might have wanted to, but on the other hand you don't hear about anyone but Melian doing it, so it's possible she was the only one even interested in reproducing. Basically, however you need to use it in your story should be fine.

In my monster WIP that I'll never finish I had planned on having Sauron afflicted with the same desire as Melkor, wanting to create life ex nihilo, but Sauron has an option Melkor doesn't which is having children. Not that his efforts would have been successful but he tried. And I don't think he minded the practice all that much either.

Anna

PS The essay is from Vinyar Tengwar, which is a publication from the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship. I sent you an email with a copy of the essay and a link to E.L.F.

[SpaceWeavil]

[Thuriniel]

Good to see you around Andreth (I know I've missed you!) ... as always, I'm in awe !

[Andreth]

Thanks Thuriniel. I'm around every so often, just haven't had much time/energy for posting. But I've very much missed you guys, too.

No need to be in awe of me. I just have a good memory for things I've read. You're the language genius - now *that's* the hard stuff.