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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| inglor wrote: |
I(no, for those of you who have read my stuff, I have never messed around with anybody's wife...that I know of ), Inglor, Stuthor |
Dammit, I sooo wanted to hear THAT story. Inglor the Slutty, now there's a plot bunny!
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Girlfriends and sisters, but no wives. Just not cool, I may be a guy but I still have boundries.
Inglor the (former)Slut with Morals
sorry
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1013
Location: I'm located somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I may be wrong, but any story with a warrior/good guy or the female warrior/good girl (or the villian) is a so called sue, which I have nothing against if it's written right.
- DEC
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | | TG, I have a lovely Haldir avi you can have. Its a black and white pencil sketch but it is beautifully done. Gimme a shout if ya wanna see. |
would i like to see it?? is the sky blue?? did you really expect me to say no??  love to, ghetto dahling
but back to the topic....
when you think about it, where do authors get thier stories from? whatever ideas i scribble down on paper but never actually write, they usually come from some self-insert fantasy inside my head....while the end product (when it finally becomes a product) may be so different and mostly original that a reader can't tell it was based off something, the principal remains the same.
names might be changed, places described differently, but they all come from ME, and i usually get my ideas from what i've read or seen.
i have a book called "Tales Before Tolkein" by douglas anderson - basically, it is a book comprised of the tales that the professor cited, saying that's where the ideas of his stories came from. there is a really lovely story in there about elves, describing them as, well, the ULTIMATE of ultimate mary sues - i mean, the author of that story really smeared it on thick - but that doesn't mean it's bad.
on the contrary, the story is fascinating, and really left an impression on me - after the last page turned i was still lost int he beauty of the words.
but getting back to my original point, if you want to look at it literally, EVERY SINGLE DAMN CHARACTER in lotr is a variation of a a sue - self-insert, perfect, fanfiction - you name it.
but going back to the book, i strongly suggest it for anyone who is looking for a light read.
TG
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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oh, and, you're welcome, Nancy!
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ZeeDrippyVessel
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 144
Location: deep south
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | I respectfully disagree: a cornerstone archetype (sorry) of folk tales in most cultures is the foundling/orphan/adopted/kid-who-feels-out-of-place who, after a host of adventures, discovers there really is somethings special about him and has to assume a remarkable destiny.
It's their struggles, their reluctance, their only gradual undertanding that makes them avoid the dull and cliche realm of Sue-dom.
They don't necessarily have remarkable powers, so much as inner strength (and the occasional enchanted sword/wand/empowering phallic symbol i.e. magical thing they cannot entirely control) and the remarkable destiny is usually no picnic.
This, IMHO, is what keeps these archetypes inherently resonant, and not sues.
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Ah but write a FEMALE one and watch your head go flying. It is difficult for ANY fanfic writer to write an interesting female that isn't canon without stepping on someone's toes or being so goshed darned boring, you wonder... why? Give her an edge tho and watch your butt get handed to you on a platter! It's not fun, I assure you. It doesn't matter if she gets sexually involved with the lead canon character, but let's be honest... who wants to watch a writer build a relationship with the canon character, only to have her run off and live happily ever after with the dog pound catcher? 
I have to agree with Viv here - rather than bash the Sue, bash the cliche. 
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | NancyBrooke wrote: | I respectfully disagree: a cornerstone archetype (sorry) of folk tales in most cultures is the foundling/orphan/adopted/kid-who-feels-out-of-place who, after a host of adventures, discovers there really is somethings special about him and has to assume a remarkable destiny.
It's their struggles, their reluctance, their only gradual undertanding that makes them avoid the dull and cliche realm of Sue-dom.
They don't necessarily have remarkable powers, so much as inner strength (and the occasional enchanted sword/wand/empowering phallic symbol i.e. magical thing they cannot entirely control) and the remarkable destiny is usually no picnic.
This, IMHO, is what keeps these archetypes inherently resonant, and not sues.
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Ah but write a FEMALE one and watch your head go flying. It is difficult for ANY fanfic writer to write an interesting female that isn't canon without stepping on someone's toes or being so goshed darned boring, you wonder... why? Give her an edge tho and watch your butt get handed to you on a platter! It's not fun, I assure you. It doesn't matter if she gets sexually involved with the lead canon character, but let's be honest... who wants to watch a writer build a relationship with the canon character, only to have her run off and live happily ever after with the dog pound catcher?
I have to agree with Viv here - rather than bash the Sue, bash the cliche. |
i hope you're not talking about Bronny Zee.....she might be a sue in some eyes, but she was written way too well for anyone to even accuse her! show me the person who hasn't fallen in love with "vessel," and i'll show you a pig that can fly.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: |
Ah but write a FEMALE one and watch your head go flying. It is difficult for ANY fanfic writer to write an interesting female that isn't canon without stepping on someone's toes or being so goshed darned boring, you wonder... why? |
Mine must be boring then, since no one's bashed her yet.
I've read a few published fantasy works where the protagonist was female, yet the story followed the old 'she discovers she's something special and has been all along, with some special destiny' road, and they've been very good stories. Then again, I've read some of the same stuff in fan fic and in published works that I've thought were rubbish. Still think it's a matter of taste. I think Viv said somewhere else on the forum (and I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her again) that a good writer can usually make 'anything' work, and I would include Mary Sues in that.
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ZeeDrippyVessel
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 144
Location: deep south
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Texasgirl wrote: |
i hope you're not talking about Bronny Zee.....she might be a sue in some eyes, but she was written way too well for anyone to even accuse her! show me the person who hasn't fallen in love with "vessel," and i'll show you a pig that can fly. |
Find your flying pigs, hon. Believe me - Bronny is as deeply HATED and DESPISED as she is loved. I can give you a LIST. There are hate threads dedicated to her. I could go on and on but I won't. If you want details, email me, but I won't sully the site or this discussion.
This is just an AWESOME discussion!
(I tried to PM this, but it messed up...)
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ZeeDrippyVessel
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 144
Location: deep south
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: |
Ah but write a FEMALE one and watch your head go flying. It is difficult for ANY fanfic writer to write an interesting female that isn't canon without stepping on someone's toes or being so goshed darned boring, you wonder... why? |
Mine must be boring then, since no one's bashed her yet. |
Everything I've read of yours rocks!
When does 6th age update???? hmmmmmm ***Bats long eyelashes***
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | Everything I've read of yours rocks! |
 Thanks
| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | When does 6th age update???? hmmmmmm ***Bats long eyelashes*** |
I need to be in the right mood for writing that story and I can feel it coming on, but unfortunately I have a group essay on the Scottish Parliament to write for Thursday. After reading this thread, I'm thinking of writing the essay in the style of a Mary Sue. 'Mary Sue goes to Holyrood' perhaps.
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1013
Location: I'm located somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | Everything I've read of yours rocks! |
Thanks
| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | When does 6th age update???? hmmmmmm ***Bats long eyelashes*** |
I need to be in the right mood for writing that story and I can feel it coming on, but unfortunately I have a group essay on the Scottish Parliament to write for Thursday. After reading this thread, I'm thinking of writing the essay in the style of a Mary Sue. 'Mary Sue goes to Holyrood' perhaps. |
SW, I have no idea why but I found the 'Mary Sue goes to Holyrood' funny. You crack me up.
- DEC
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Elvenesse
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | Sues are just like slash: some of 'em are really good, and some of 'em are really bad. |
To me, Mary Sues are simply badly written, one-dimensional characters that you couldn’t give a damn about.
I think that if they are well written, then they aren't Mary Sues - they're simply well written OFCs.
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeeDrippyVessel wrote: | | Texasgirl wrote: |
i hope you're not talking about Bronny Zee.....she might be a sue in some eyes, but she was written way too well for anyone to even accuse her! show me the person who hasn't fallen in love with "vessel," and i'll show you a pig that can fly. |
Find your flying pigs, hon. Believe me - Bronny is as deeply HATED and DESPISED as she is loved. I can give you a LIST. There are hate threads dedicated to her. I could go on and on but I won't. If you want details, email me, but I won't sully the site or this discussion.
This is just an AWESOME discussion!
(I tried to PM this, but it messed up...) |
WTF?  god, we really need a bash-the-sues-who-deserve-it-and-not-the-sues-who-kickass-and-are-written-reeeealy-well-club
(BTSWDIANTSWKAAWRWC) for short 
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ZeeDrippyVessel
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 144
Location: deep south
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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No, we need not bash anyone or anything. There are places set up for just that and I have no respect for those that post there. If I know an author that whines on those sites, I don't read them. I will not support someone who feels that in order to be important, they have to mock. Same with reviews. If I'm flamed (and I have been) or reviewed by someone who posts in that kind of forum - I flush it. Their opinion is not worth my time. I had one flamer tell me that her 'review' for my story (she admittedly had only read the excerpts posted by the original flamer) had not been meant for my eyes. Well, if you can't review me on an honorable forum (and those places aren't), then again, your opinion is not worth my time and I'm certainly NOT going to put a whole lot of stock in it. She went on to say that if I truly wanted to improve, I would go to the site and ask for help...
WTF? 
There are those who will see this and go squueeeing back about how egotistical and Diva-ish I am. That's not the case. I've joined writers groups and clubs and allowed them access to my paultry writings. It is not NECESSARY to totally destroy a work to improve it.
Look at it this way - Mary Sue is a growing, learning experience for many writers. Sure with alot, she is a self-insert... the living out of fantasy and wishful thinking. Who DIDN"T want to be uber speshul when they were gawky with big teeth? There are writers out there who just write for the attention. If they behave badly when you Constructive Critique them, are they worth the effort of MSTing or sporking? No. What a waste of energy. Rather than wasting my time mocking someone else, I'm really too busy improving my stuff and dealing with RL. I have no problems helping the writer that wants help. I dont' have time to waste on someone who is more interested in getting that next chapter posted and could care less about spelling, grammer and continuity.
Look. You are getting me on my soapbox.  Bad thread! Bad thread!
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