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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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And now for something completely different: a post on topic -
Not bashing the Sue as I agree with Zee that
| Quote: | | we need not bash anyone or anything. |
But I would draw a distinction between the Sue and the OFC, regardless of how well or poorly either is written:
| ZDV wrote: |
Is she self - insert? Sometimes
Is she all - powerful? Sometimes
Is she drop - dead gorgeous? Usually
Is she different? Almost always
Is she believable? Depends on the skill of the writer
Does the canon character fall in love with her? If he knows what's good for him he will! |
I think, to really achieve Sue-hood, the character in question does have to be all powerful, drop-dead gorgeous, different, non-believable, and an object of adoration. Otherwise, what you’ve got there is an OFC.
| Inglor, Stuthor wrote: | | I was looking at some of my writing and I see a great deal of myself or my actions in them (no, for those of you who have read my stuff, I have never messed around with anybody's wife...that I know of ), so I guess all my stuff is a little Marty Stu-ish |
Again, I think for a self-insertion to be a Sue/Stu it has to be an idealized self created exclusively for wish-fulfillment and for no higher literary purpose.
So, all you self-inserters in there, me included  , you can let yourself off the Sue hook if you want to.
| Eyborg wrote: | | hey, you forgot Luke Skywalker! |
OMG you’re right.  Huge oversight: he is a futuristic hero in the traditional sense; great example.
| Eyborg wrote: | | but like you said, those you mentioned are all male ... but if somebody writes a female version of this type, she is always labelled as a Sue (and that as a bad thing)? |
Yes, the female version is not a folk-tale archetype that has survived in Western culture, although I think they’re out there. We do have heroines who are the
| Nancy wrote: | | foundling/orphan/adopted/kid-who-feels-out-of-place who, after a host of adventures, discovers there really is somethings special about [her] and has to assume a remarkable destiny. |
The only crucial difference being a man is necessary to fulfill that destiny; e.g. Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty etc.
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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found it way too late...all that time wasted at ff.net... 
okay, zee, do, and viv.  sorry will ducktape hands to chair and keep my curiosity on a veeery short collar. can't say sorry enough guys....
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Texasgirl wrote: | | will ducktape hands to chair and keep my curiosity on a veeery short collar. can't say sorry enough guys.... |
Is good. I had similar curiosity a while back in this fandom, and I think hunting about and knowing what goes on in the dark places of your fandom is a good thing. But I've seen people go in against hecklers, and it's never a pretty sight.
Hecklers aren't bad people, but many of them are very very good at what they do, and arguing with them usually stings the arguer more than it does them. |
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Texasgirl wrote: | found it way too late...all that time wasted at ff.net...
okay, zee, do, and viv. sorry will ducktape hands to chair and keep my curiosity on a veeery short collar. can't say sorry enough guys.... |
We all still love you Texas! 
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krazykataave
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 124
Location: Immortalized by John Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jeeze! Just got back from looking at the GAFF forum. I'm naive i guess i never realized that there was a backlash to fan fiction. I thought it was written as therapy for the author or out of some creative mood. People just need to let it go. I know that there is a backlash to everything and the internet makes things so easy to do but why fight your own creativness?
Kat |
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DarkElfChilde
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1013
Location: I'm located somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| krazykataave wrote: | Jeeze! Just got back from looking at the GAFF forum. I'm naive i guess i never realized that there was a backlash to fan fiction. I thought it was written as therapy for the author or out of some creative mood. People just need to let it go. I know that there is a backlash to everything and the internet makes things so easy to do but why fight your own creativness?
Kat |
Because some people are either dumb, have nothing better to do, or enjoy insulting someone's work because they aren't good at what others are achieving or are good at it. Or...all of the above, and I'm sure that I'm missing another reason, but I don't care. I say, screw them, and enjoy what you want to do. ‹^› ‹(•¿•)› ‹^›
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SilverMoonLady
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 1201
Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'm paraphrasing somebody (and don't agree with the first part) but, "Those who can't do, teach; those who can't teach become critics".....
It's just a shame that they feel the need not just to put others down, but to do it in such a way that there is no response or defense a sensible person can make without "feeding the trolls" (great expression, btw)
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | Yes, the female version is not a folk-tale archetype that has survived in Western culture, although I think they’re out there. We do have heroines who are the
| Nancy wrote: | | foundling/orphan/adopted/kid-who-feels-out-of-place who, after a host of adventures, discovers there really is somethings special about [her] and has to assume a remarkable destiny. |
The only crucial difference being a man is necessary to fulfill that destiny; e.g. Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty etc. |
You know, back in college, I would have whipped out the Tale Type Index and tried to find all instances of girl-quest types. I miss the Index, but getting my own copy would be stupid expensive. Do you know of a good affordable resource that has similar information?
[Apologies for going so far off-topic!] |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: |
You know, back in college, I would have whipped out the Tale Type Index and tried to find all instances of girl-quest types. I miss the Index, but getting my own copy would be stupid expensive. Do you know of a good affordable resource that has similar information?
[Apologies for going so far off-topic!] |
How about Women Who Run with Wolves?
At least I think that's what it's called. It may be more essays than reference, though.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Scribe
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Betelgeuse
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Using some of Zee's points because they're the best way to answer.
| Quote: | | Is she self - insert? |
Every authors injects something of themselves into their characters, so the question seems foolish. Besides, the 'pure' definition of a Mary Sue is a wonderful, fantastical creature that is so unlike the ordinary person writing hers. So I'd say no.
| Quote: | | Is she all - powerful? |
If she was, she wouldn't be interesting and her story would have no challenge.
| Quote: | | Is she drop - dead gorgeous? |
She shouldn't be I think because in real life, not everyone we meet looks like Catherine Zeta Jones and then again, they don't look like the knuckle walkers on Springer either.
She wouldn't be interesting if she were not different. But she ought to exhibit some qualities of the women from the era she's from.
| Quote: | | Is she believable? |
People claim that Melia is believable, for me I'm not so sure. I think I wrote her ordinary and that's what most people react to.
| Quote: | | Does the canon character fall in love with her? If he knows what's good for him he will! |
Guilty….but in my defence I was trying to write the definitive Legolas romance.
| Quote: | | Is she deserving of all the scorn and abuse heaped upon her head? |
Well most people tell me that Melia isn't a Sue and yet I know that there are those who cannot see her as anything but. I think that in the eyes of the purist, no female, not written by Tolkien himself, will ever be seen as anything but a Sue. Its not fair – just the way it is.
| Quote: | | That she is normally the first character a writer experiments with - |
Of course…when I was sixteen I wrote a fic about a sixteen year old freedom fighter in V and of course, she was so good she could even control her menstrual cycles on whim and had no PMS  I thank GOD that there was no Internet back then and the evidence of this has been burned/
I think there can be a well written Mary Sue and that's why we don't have a blanket ban on ten walker fics or girl who falls to Middle Earth story. The thing is, there are people who like these stories and if they are well written, they are as legitimate a form as slash or any other aspect of the fandom. Mary Sue too often is used as a catch cry for purists to label a story and I tend to think its unfair. Of course Prince LuvmebecauseImwonderful from the Kingdom of Nonexistence who saves Boromir, cures Gollum of his schizoidness is boring as heck to read about but too often its used as the representative for all things Mary Sue. And Mary Sue doesn't always equate to bad fic. |
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ZeeDrippyVessel
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 144
Location: deep south
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Texasgirl wrote: |
okay, zee, do, and viv. sorry will ducktape hands to chair and keep my curiosity on a veeery short collar. can't say sorry enough guys.... |
Is okay. We do love you!
The thing to remember here is that EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. And that's all it is. You can't please everyone! It's impossible. But no matter how important THEY think they are, it's still just an opinion.
The first thing I teach my students on the first day of class is not everything we listen to in class, they are going to like. If they don't like something, it's okay to say - this isn't my cup of tea. It doens't mean it's bad or wrong or JRRT is rolling over in his grave...
well, he probably is. As a hardcore LACE breaker, I'll be the first to tell you he broke his own laws all the time, so WHAT is your problem?...
However to the best of my study, he openly invited gap filling and additional stories to be added.
GAFF isn't the only one of these places - there are many. THing is - how much time are you willing to WASTE wanking off at one of these places? Or even looking at it? Think of the POSITIVE things you could be doing! There is nothing positive about this. I have better things to do than to go hunting where the SAME PEOPLE are bad mouthing the SAME fic.
See, I need to get Gamling laid. Oh, and Bronny needs to get well and wake up and smell the potions! Much more important than petrified wank!
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GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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that was excellent. thank you for pointing that out, gypsie rose!
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