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LuthienTinuviel
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 354
Location: Dancing in the clouds.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, browser screwup.
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 358
Location: Trying to stay below the radar
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| I LOVE it that someone is using the term "canatic". And I agree with Scribe. |
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Eyborg
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 429
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Space Weavil: Your friend threatened to throw you into the Thames if you didn't stop talking about LOTR??? 
SilverMoonLady: And your husband wants you to throw Merry and Pippin off a cliff???
My oh my. How weird people can be. Makes us almost normal!!! 
Oh well. Anyway.
I guess I'm lucky that here in Iceland LOTR has always been quite popular, and even more now after the movies came out. So I know quite a lot of people who at least like the movies.  And I've discovered that at least two of my friends (women) are gradually turning into fans! 
As for how I see my fellow Tolkien fans... hmm, I don't know. I guess it's all been said here above. We're all different, some of us love elves % & learning Quenya, some of us love the Rohirrim, and some of us are pervy hobbit fanciers! And all in between. But we all love Tolkien. |
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Eyborg
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 429
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Oops, I forgot.
| Rous wrote: | | And mpreg, did that originate with LOTR? I had never even conceived of that except in the movie "Enemy Mine" in which case, it was an alien and believable. But then again, it works for seahorses. |
The alien in Enemy Mine was actually not "male" per se, it was an androgynous species.  They fertilized themselves, if I remember correctly.
BTW who in the world thought of male pregnancy in LOTR? That person must have been on drugs... 
I think I've only seen two examples of mpreg in movies/books: Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Junior", and also one Icelandic comedy novel that was written about 50 years ago or so, called "Letter to Lára". - That's all...
As for slash, I don't write it myself, but I sometimes like to read slash stories if they're good & well written. But I see them as any other A/U stories.
As for canon stories, I guess I can say something similar to SilverMoonLady. When I first saw the movies I loved them, but there are of course some minor details that I personally would have done differently. And when I first started reading LOTR fanfic, it took me a bit of time to get used to all the other different ideas that other writers have (like for instance, me and SilverMoonLady have sometimes very different ideas how our hobbits are and behave, but we still love each other's stories). Like for instance, I would never put Pippin in an arranged, loveless marriage, but I can still read & enjoy stories where that happens. |
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: |
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ok. Gonna be serious here for a moment. Hmm, imagine that. I haven't read much slash and what I have read usually turns Erestor or Glorfindel into simpering little weenies. The idea of slash doesn't bother me, I've just never read a slash story that didn't really blow. My other problem is this. I love slash art, I think almost everything Theban does is extremely erotic but as soon as a it gets down to TabA in SlotB, I totally lose girl wood. It just squicks me. Not morally, I have no objection to anyone doing anyone or anything as long as both, or all ten parties are in agreement. It just doesn't do anything for me. I don't get it myself, the idea of Eomer and Haldir all oiled up and slidey together is sooo teh hawt, just don't put any puzzle parts together and I'm all good. I have nooo idea.
As far as fanfic goes, I justify it using the prof's own words:
"Once upon a time I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J.R.R. Tolkien
How much more validation do we need?
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | ok. Gonna be serious here for a moment. Hmm, imagine that. I haven't read much slash and what I have read usually turns Erestor or Glorfindel into simpering little weenies. The idea of slash doesn't bother me, I've just never read a slash story that didn't really blow. My other problem is this. I love slash art, I think almost everything Theban does is extremely erotic but as soon as a it gets down to TabA in SlotB, I totally lose girl wood. It just squicks me. Not morally, I have no objection to anyone doing anyone or anything as long as both, or all ten parties are in agreement. It just doesn't do anything for me. I don't get it myself, the idea of Eomer and Haldir all oiled up and slidey together is sooo teh hawt, just don't put any puzzle parts together and I'm all good. I have nooo idea.
As far as fanfic goes, I justify it using the prof's own words:
"Once upon a time I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J.R.R. Tolkien
How much more validation do we need? |
Eep. Ghetto is so awesome when in 'serious mode'  Well said.
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 426
Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: Fantasy v. reality |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | ghettoelleth wrote: | ok. Gonna be serious here for a moment. Hmm, imagine that. I haven't read much slash and what I have read usually turns Erestor or Glorfindel into simpering little weenies. The idea of slash doesn't bother me, I've just never read a slash story that didn't really blow. My other problem is this. I love slash art, I think almost everything Theban does is extremely erotic but as soon as a it gets down to TabA in SlotB, I totally lose girl wood. It just squicks me. Not morally, I have no objection to anyone doing anyone or anything as long as both, or all ten parties are in agreement. It just doesn't do anything for me. I don't get it myself, the idea of Eomer and Haldir all oiled up and slidey together is sooo teh hawt, just don't put any puzzle parts together and I'm all good. I have nooo idea.
As far as fanfic goes, I justify it using the prof's own words:
"Once upon a time I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J.R.R. Tolkien
How much more validation do we need? |
Eep. Ghetto is so awesome when in 'serious mode' Well said. |
Weavil and Ghetto:
Well said. And Ghetto, great quote.
The concepts of boy-on-boy are not new. LOTR fans (self included) have been around for a looooong time.
The new fans of LOTR, due to the immense popularity of the films, have added more visibility to the fandom at large and slash in particular. (See Scribe's definition of fangirl...)
As far as I can tell, the roots of boy-on-boy comics/fiction/fandom began in Japan during the 1970s with the introduction of beautiful, androgynous characters (both male and female). Voila--the bishonen--or "pretty boy." One cannot argue the wonderful androgynous draw of the elves (see nerri and nissi in LACE); this was evident even in the films. The scene of Elrond (sigh) with his raven hair and flowing robe is a sight to behold!
Frank Schott's treatise of this phenomenon in "Manga, Manga: The World of Japanese Comics," written in 1983, explains the draw of young girls (or women in general) to male-on-male art and fiction. "Love between boys is so completely distant from our own reality that it's not threatening, yet it gives them a vicarious experience." (See Scribe's notes above.) "They also think that it is pretty."
There you go: A non-threatening, vicarious experience--with pretty elf-boys. It is the ultimate fantasy and many challenges stem for the taboos one encounters with such matters. (Gee, the Third Marshal of the Mark, a Man and heir to the throne of Rohan, in amourous embrace with a common elf woodsman of Lorien is one HECKUVA plot bunny!) LOL!
And, Ghetto, there IS some well-written slash out there. It depends on your thresh-hold for what you read. Hey, you like a little bit of canon with your kink?
JMHO. BTW, I agree with Scribe about slash... 
--Eruanna
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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See, that's what I don't get Eru. When I read a fic, I take it in the spirit it was intended, I do not expect everything to be The Divine Comedies, or Iliad, and when it comes to sex and kink...well frankly, I'm a pig. Ask Al. I just don't get why it squicks me to watch or read about the "p" word when it come to two men.
I'm just a FREAK!! lol
backspace backspace backspace (lol, brought my husband over to read this and he said, "no jes, you should not say that in a public forum, dirty girl")
You know, there's a really long speech I could deliver here and aspects of it would probably be considered quite vulgar to the gen pub. So I'll just shut up now and accept the fact that that particular aspect of the human condition is not my gig. 
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: |
backspace backspace backspace (lol, brought my husband over to read this and he said, "no jes, you should not say that in a public forum, dirty girl")
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Is it just me or does everyone wonder what she was going to say???
I agree with Ghetto about Slash making the characters so opposite of what they are supposed to. Like Elrohir/Elladan - (first let me say I cannot stand the thought that not only would it be boy on boy but brother on brother!!) - why in Slash are they portrayed as wimps and little girls. And Legolas, poor Legolas, he is always the receiver, usually forced/raped, and is usually such a wussy it makes me crazy. And Haldir is usually a rapist type or is doing it with his brothers. I am sorry if you slash with your brothers it is still INCEST!!! You never see (thank God) stories about Eomer/Eowyn or Arwen/Elrohir or Elladan. Why is okay when it is brothers??? And Ghetto is right about Glo/Erestor - what the hell is up with that. A balrog slayer becomes a wimp because he falls in love with Erestor. Maybe Slash wouldn't be soooo offensive if they left the character personalities in tact and stopped encouraging rape and/or incest. 
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 426
Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: Response |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | See, that's what I don't get Eru. When I read a fic, I take it in the spirit it was intended, I do not expect everything to be The Divine Comedies, or Iliad, and when it comes to sex and kink...well frankly, I'm a pig. Ask Al. I just don't get why it squicks me to watch or read about the "p" word when it come to two men.
I'm just a FREAK!! lol
backspace backspace backspace (lol, brought my husband over to read this and he said, "no jes, you should not say that in a public forum, dirty girl")
You know, there's a really long speech I could deliver here and aspects of it would probably be considered quite vulgar to the gen pub. So I'll just shut up now and accept the fact that that particular aspect of the human condition is not my gig. |
I hear you, Ghetto!
Everyone has a different thresh-hold and preference, het, slash or what-have-you. Just as some people like to read/write G-rated happy Hobbit fics where Sam and Rosie hold hands (never mind the part about 13 children...), and some like to read/write explicit, passionate screaming-up-on-a-talan elf (het or slash) romances!
(Legolas is not always the passive...and there is some slash fic in which the puissant Prince of the Woodland Realm takes on the lowly Haldir, humble woodsman of Lorien--taking into account the feudal class differences of lord and servant...)
As Mablung might say to Beleg, "Whatever twangs your bowstring, my fair troth-brother."
--Eruanna
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"I have returned from the Northern Fences," said the Elf, "and I am sent now to be your guide again." |
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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What really chaps me about slash is that somebody who either took on A) a Balrog, B) Morgoth C) Sauron D) Nazgul or E) Hordes of Orcses/wolves/trolls etc. is turned into a simpering, pining, tearry eyed p***y. These uber-alfamales turned into omegas or whatever just gets my hackles up. The sex sqicks me but it is the OOC-ness that really turns me off.
Inglor
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 426
Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: Response |
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| inglor wrote: | What really chaps me about slash is that somebody who either took on A) a Balrog, B) Morgoth C) Sauron D) Nazgul or E) Hordes of Orcses/wolves/trolls etc. is turned into a simpering, pining, tearry eyed p***y. These uber-alfamales turned into omegas or whatever just gets my hackles up. The sex sqicks me but it is the OOC-ness that really turns me off.
Inglor |
I agree with Inglor. MOST of slash, anyway.
Sexual proclivities aside, out-of-character does not work, at least for me. Legolas as a blooded prince royal is not going to be the plaything for a common-as-dirt woodsman, regardless of how you look at it.
JMHO. I guess anything really goes in writing fic, it's all up to the writer. I tend to gently stretch canon, ever-conscious as I can be of canon, not just throw the whole JRRT world out the door...
A prince or lord is going to act like a prince or lord. Glorfindel the balrog-slayer, esp. in his second incarnation, is not going to be some simpering boy-toy for ANYONE! Having knowledge of death will do that to an elf. I just don't see it...
JMHO...
To quote again, "Whatever twangs your bowstring."
--Eruanna
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't what Inglor said the same as what Ghetto and I both said? Makes me think that maybe just maybe alot of non-slash readers feel the same. I am watching ROTK EE right now and I am seeing these men being all manly and brave and then in slash they so aren't. Come on - we like our men MANLY and our women womanly but in a Kick Ass sorta way. I think the best part of the whole Eowyn thing (movie verse of course) is the fact that when she sees all of the orcs in front of Minas Tirith - she is scared. Very obviously scared. Yet she goes on to kick butt. Being brave doesn't mean not being scared. It means being scared and doing it anyway!
The same is true of Pippin, Merry, Sam, and Frodo. The men/elves don't show fear but they have been in battle before so it is different. But like Eomer said - war is not fun. He has no choice but to fight. (not his exact words)
Gotta go for now....watching all this hotness is distracting me!
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Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
http://alikat7.livejournal.com/ |
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 426
Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | Isn't what Inglor said the same as what Ghetto and I both said? Makes me think that maybe just maybe alot of non-slash readers feel the same. I am watching ROTK EE right now and I am seeing these men being all manly and brave and then in slash they so aren't. Come on - we like our men MANLY and our women womanly but in a Kick Ass sorta way. I think the best part of the whole Eowyn thing (movie verse of course) is the fact that when she sees all of the orcs in front of Minas Tirith - she is scared. Very obviously scared. Yet she goes on to kick butt. Being brave doesn't mean not being scared. It means being scared and doing it anyway!
The same is true of Pippin, Merry, Sam, and Frodo. The men/elves don't show fear but they have been in battle before so it is different. But like Eomer said - war is not fun. He has no choice but to fight. (not his exact words)
Gotta go for now....watching all this hotness is distracting me! |
Even in the book, Eowyn faced off against the Witch-king, but had tears upon her cheek. She was a woman with women's feelings, but the "heart" (i.e. guts) of a man, if you will.
I love examining the whole masculine/feminine dichotomy, but also exploring where those lines can be blurred. The whole elf thing (in LACE, comparing nerri and nissi, and even in the movie verse) is what I find very intriguing! JMHO...
--Eruanna
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Texasgirl
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 895
Location: Texas (no shit, sherlock)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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major...headache...cannot...concentrate...on....ANY...of...this
basically, don't we all just agree that OOCness is bad, OOCness slash is worst, and mpreg and incest and really not acceptable accept under certain conditions.
k.
goodnight.
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