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NancyBrooke
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Joined: 11 May 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:54 am Post subject: |
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 This is what happens if one doesn't typically read Legolas fic; you miss out on some good stories and suggest their plots back to the authors! |
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Elvenesse
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 82
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I think Legolas's slightly bewildered look outside Moria and at Amon Hen is sweet. However, he is at least 500 years old, and lives in Mirkwood. They have spiders, the darkening of the forest, Dol Guldur and The Necromancer. Both the book and films show him as a warrior, and just because Elves are immortal doesn't mean they can't die. Therefore, I find it very unlikely he hasn't seen death before. He could show grief yes, but bewilderment and incomprehension is a little extreme.
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | They have spiders, the darkening of the forest, Dol Guldur and The Necromancer. Both the book and films show him as a warrior, and just because Elves are immortal doesn't mean they can't die. |
The first time I heard Orlando saying in the cast commentary that for Legolas death is a new experience (or something like that , I don't remember his exact words), I cringed because of the reasons mentioned above!
I'm sure Legolas had seen death before ... Battle of the Five Armies anyone?! We don't know if Legolas was there (although I tend to think he probably was), but even if he wasn't, he would've seen the results of that battle. As I recall, it was quite bloody and many were lost.
But, let's give Orlando some credit. He did an amazing job outside of Moria and when Aragorn falls down the cliff. His eyes speak volumes!
Maria |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I really would have liked if instead of (At least it seemed like this to me.) first Gimli and Legolas hate each other to all of a sudden in TTT they're best friends, instead had gradually became friends it would have been better. |
If I recall correctly (I really do need to reread The Books  !), that's exactly how it happens in the books as well! One minute Gimli and Legolas are having a fit over being blindfolded to enter Lorien, the next thing you know Legolas is taking him on tours of the Golden Wood with him. Odd. Here's a direct quote from FotR,
"Legolas was away much among the Galadhrim, and after the first night he did not sleep with the other companions, though he returned to eat and talked with them. Often he took Gimli with him when he went abroad in the land, and the others wondered at this change."
So, queenoftheshire ... you are not the only one who wonders. Even the Fellowship was puzzled about their relationship ! And since I'm puzzled as well ... anyone out there knows why there was such a radical change in the Gimli/Legolas relationship? (other than the possible slash theories  !)
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queenoftheshire
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
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Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well you are probably you're right about Legolas seeing death but I think one point I have to make is Gandalf is a close friend. I mean it's one thing to see a complete stranger die, but to watch a friend/relative die is quite another.
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Elb
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| We are told in FotR that Galadriel spoke to each of the Fellowship in turn, and we know that she liked Gimli. Maybe in her little telepathic chat with Legolas, she persuaded him to be a little nicer to the dwarven member of the Fellowship…? |
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Jael
Joined: 18 May 2005
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Location: USA, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thurinel said:
"So, queenoftheshire ... you are not the only one who wonders. Even the Fellowship was puzzled about their relationship ! And since I'm puzzled as well ... anyone out there knows why there was such a radical change in the Gimli/Legolas relationship? (other than the possible slash theories !)"
I hope it isn't bad form to reopen ancient threads, but I just ran across this, and I have a theory. In the movie, at least, Legolas never really opens to Gimli until he has seen him so obviously lose his Dwarvish heart to Galadriel. (I had missed this until seeing the FoTR EE for the first time last month, in which John Rhys-Davies makes it clear that Gladriel has spoiled Gimli for little hairy women from that point on.) Does the Elf realize that the Dwarf is "human" after all? Could the Elf have had an unrequited passion of his own that would lead him to being sympathetic? |
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Neniel
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
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Location: Hiding from the men in white. Contrary to common belief, psychiatrists are *very* sneaky people
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I came across the topic and I couldn't help but write a few words on the subject!
| Quote: | | They have spiders, the darkening of the forest, Dol Guldur and The Necromancer. Both the book and films show him as a warrior, and just because Elves are immortal doesn't mean they can't die. Therefore, I find it very unlikely he hasn't seen death before. He could show grief yes, but bewilderment and incomprehension is a little extreme. |
I think it is important to make a certain distinction when referring to Elves and their experiences with death. Legolas is a warrior, yes, and he has seen death, but only death during battle and from the forces of evil. Such a death is easier to cope with, it comes with a face and a name to blame and a way to revenge. The whole reason why the Prince of Mirkwood decides to join the mission for the destruction of the Ring could be ettributed to that. As a Prince and -my guess is- one in a position of power in Mirkwood's army, he has had to witness and inwardly assume responsibility for way too many deaths among his people, So, when the chance comes along to redeam himself for part of that responsibility, he doesn't hesitate to take it, driven by his own secret reasoning. It is, in my opinion, the only solid reason behind an otherwise irrational decision. Why would the heir to the throne of Mirkwood join the Fellowship in a suicide mission, if not because of him having to watch too many of his fellow warriors back in Mirkwood losing their immortal lives to the darkness that spreads from the reign of Sauron?
Not to mention that death has a different sense among the Eldar. When they die, their souls go to the Halls of Mandos, where they can dwell until the end of time or wait until they are reborn. So, in a way, it's more like a very quick way of going West (the Halls of Mandos are in Aman, after all). There is pain, yes, and regret, because of the sudden and longterm separation from their kin who remain in Arda, but it's not a permanent parting. Which, in turn, could be an easier explanation to why fading with grief is more common among the Elves. It is simply the acceptance of not wanting to endure the separation period and choosing to immediately follow one's mate instead. It is not the same death as in human terms.
And that brings us to the other part of death, the one that Elves (or Men for that matter) cannot come to terms with. One that has no solid reason, no one to blame and no way to revenge. Such a death, that, mind you, follows an even more painful process of aging, weakening and withering away, is much harder to cope with. Humans face it their whole lives and have yet to understand it; imagine how much more difficult it is for the Elves that are untouched by it. It baffles them and they have no way to deal with it. There were no orcs for Legolas to kill when his friend, King Elessar, Aragorn, Strider, Estel died. No huge spiders for him to slay when the Hobbits in turn were laying in death not far from the dead body of the lost King of Gondor. And after having to cope with that, he also witnessed Arwen's passing in the midst of a faded Lorien; he watched another otherwise immortal, like himself, follow the same path after there was but a shell of her former radiant presence left. After, in a way, she had also been tainted by her mortality.
And what is worse, death for mortals has a far more permanent meaning. Their souls leave the circles of this world and no one knows their fate. So, there is no hope of rejoining beyond the Sea, merely the uncertainty of an unknown fate, one that no Elf can follow. And that, more than anything, is what would really pain an Elf. Because I am rather certain that they understand the deaths of their fellow warriors in battle well enough. It is the permanent seapration without any chances of ever being together again that they can never truly grasp.
I think it is also a reason behind the rarity of Elf-Man pairings. Even if the mortal one of the pair had the nobility to age beside an Elf, would the Elf endure a separation in all eternity after the other's death? Arwen was lucky in that part at least, and I have read many good fanfiction stories that depict that.
But, as far as Legolas' change in Moria is concerned, I'm not sure what to think. Did Legolas know that Gandalf was indeed the Maia Olórin? And if he did, would he think him to be truly dead, as in having strayed apart from this world forever, or would he assume that his Maia spirit was returned to Aman? If we suppose that he really did believe that Gandalf was lost to them forever, then it is possible that he would reconsider many of his ideas. It would then be his first encounter with the 'mortal' kind of death, and it is possible that he would feel the need to be closer to all of his mortal companions, tasting for the first time the real fear of losing them. And that goes for Gimli too, even if we don't know what happens to the souls of the Dwarves after they die. And there you have the reason for the Fellowship Elf to reconsider his attitude towards the Fellowship Dwarf. Hence the walks in Lorien!
Taking that a step further, Legolas' second encounter with 'death' is in Amon Hen, where Boromir perishes. And what do we have in Helm's Deep? An Elf and a Dwarf bantering away about their battle accomplishes like old-time friends. See the connection?
All in all, I find Legolas sort of a tragic figure after considering all that. The way I see it, he joined the Fellowship simply to avenge the evils his people had suffered from the uprise of the Necromancer in Dôl Guldur and with Gollum's escape. But he got much more than he had bargained for, he got himself a very good taste of mortality... But, I won't go into that, or this little essay will never finish! 
Just keep in mind that Elves are supposed to be different creatures from humans, from us. And we should approach their psychology as such.
(pheeeewww! finally done! ^_^)
PS: I think I'm royally depressed now! 
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Alassante
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Not meaning to be difficult but I am not sure I agree with some of what was said.
I do not think Legolas joined the fellowship to redeem himself for others deaths. It does not seem to me that the Kings and Princes sit back and idly watch others go into battle or a dangerous mission. I mean look at Gil Galad, Elendil, Isidur, Theoden, Theodred, Eomer, Finrod, Fingon, heck even Galadriel kicked some serious booty (just to name a few), they were all powerful rulers, kings, and heirs who fought (not defended when attacked but actually went out into a fight). Heck Fingolfin was King and took on Morgoth personally - one on one. (didn't turn out so well though for poor Fin though  )
Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor and Boromir was heir to the steward. I think Legolas volunteered because he felt he owed it to his people and the people of Middle Earth to do so. The royalty in ME IMO were not big on ordering others on missions then hiding behind their thrones. They were more honorable and went themselves rather than sacrifice one of their people.
The other thing about Legolas seeing death. Yes I am sure he has seen death but even elves that die are not guanteed to be reunited with their family/friends soon and very rarely ever in M.E. There is a huge long post on here about the Halls of Mandos that talks about this but its not like an elf dies on Tuesday and the following Wednesday he is walking out of Mandos in a brand new sparkly body. Their time in Mandos is not known and there is a possibility of their fea (aka soul) may not even going to Mandos (like ghosts). And Legolas was a Silvan/Sindarin (he says Silvan but he is also a decendent of Sindarin) and not all Silvan/Sindarin elves go to Valinor from what I have heard - they are more tied to M.E. and less likely to leave.
So Gandalf's death was hard on him probably because even if he thought he would be re-embodied, he did not know when or where (usually they stay in the Undying Lands after re-embodiment) and he probably felt that Gandalf was lost to Middle Earth and M.E. elves at a time when they needed him. The elves loved Gandalf.
The hobbits deaths I can see being devastating to him. They had chased them for three days and they were helpless captives of the enemy not armed warriors defending themselves.
I think Legolas and Gimli had perhaps grown up thinking the other's race was a certain way and as the fellowship went on, they discovered that they were not what they had expected and/or feared. Once they realized this, their bond began to grow.
This is all my opinion and probably more than you wanted to hear! 
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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject: My two cent's worth |
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Will add my own two cent's too.
| Alassante wrote: |
I do not think Legolas joined the fellowship to redeem himself for others deaths. It does not seem to me that the Kings and Princes sit back and idly watch others go into battle or a dangerous mission. I mean look at Gil Galad, Elendil, Isidur, Theoden, Theodred, Eomer, Finrod, Fingon, heck even Galadriel kicked some serious booty (just to name a few), they were all powerful rulers, kings, and heirs who fought (not defended when attacked but actually went out into a fight). Heck Fingolfin was King and took on Morgoth personally - one on one. (didn't turn out so well though for poor Fin though )
Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor and Boromir was heir to the steward. I think Legolas volunteered because he felt he owed it to his people and the people of Middle Earth to do so. The royalty in ME IMO were not big on ordering others on missions then hiding behind their thrones. They were more honorable and went themselves rather than sacrifice one of their people.
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Legolas volunteered in the movie. In the book, Elrond chose only Frodo and Sam (merry and pip? don't remember), and then he spent a long time pondering his choices for the other rpepresentatives of the free people... we do not see the reasoning for why it was legolas who was chosen and not any other powerful elf-lord (like the very lord Glorfindel, who was powerful enough to throw some nazgul off and would have been a lot more sheer muscle than the prince), of which he had a reasonable amount in his own house. When pip and merry insist on joining, Elrond is at first reluctant - he feels something is afoot in the shire and they might be needed- and he mentions that he was thinking of choosing someone from his own house.
I do not think any warrior with an ounce of self-respect would be able to say no if Elrond called him for the Quest, sure as heck not an elf warrior. Any of the elves present im Imladris would have gone in a blink. The question of why Elrond choose legolas instead of any of his own sons, Glorfindel or other has been going on on LoTR forums forever.
However, it is Legolas whom he calls first. Elrond has not chosen any of the Big Guys yet, but the prince has his place secured. Why?
I read a very good story by daw, [A HREF="http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=12"]A Question of Duty[/A], where both Elrond's reasoning and legolas's are explained beautifully.
(I flat out fangirl that woman.)
She proproses that Elrond might have chosen legolas because of his experience with the Shadow at Dol Guldur. After living in constant struggle with Sauron and Sauron's forces, legolas would have acquired a kind of sixth sense, more refined than that of your ordinary elf, to recognise whn that danger would be approaching. True, he was no elf-lord; but Elrond was betting on stealth rather than brute force, and his ability to see the threat coming would count much more than sheer power. Specially since they already had a maia going along with them.
Also, Legolas was a seasoned warrior, so he would not exactly be occupying the place of a warrior without giving anything in turn. He was a great bow and a more than decent blade.
Now for legolas' reasons to go along with the fellowship? Simple.
Gollum.
Grief over fallen comrades should be common to all elf warriors present. (not, however, completely risking out that factor, i am only saying it would not have been the fundamental one). Legolas is clever enough to realise that if his realm had not been overkind with the prisoner, he would not have escaped. he knew gollum must be something important because Aragorn himself brought it to Mirkwood, under orders of Mithrandir; but he had never realised that through their kindness and Gollum's subsequent escape The fate of the One Ring would be in an even more vulnerable position. In the name and for the honor of his realm, he has to make up for it.
There has no mention anywhere whether legolas is an only son. maybe he wasn't, maybe him going off to a suicide mission wouldn't threaten the balance of power of Mirkwood. But even if he was, they had a king- a good king, and a being immortal the matter of succession would only be a point through death in combat- in place already, and elves, as someone pointed out, did not run from the fight because they were head figures.
| Alassante wrote: |
The other thing about Legolas seeing death. Yes I am sure he has seen death but even elves that die are not guanteed to be reunited with their family/friends soon and very rarely ever in M.E. There is a huge long post on here about the Halls of Mandos that talks about this but its not like an elf dies on Tuesday and the following Wednesday he is walking out of Mandos in a brand new sparkly body. Their time in Mandos is not known and there is a possibility of their fea (aka soul) may not even going to Mandos (like ghosts). And Legolas was a Silvan/Sindarin (he says Silvan but he is also a decendent of Sindarin) and not all Silvan/Sindarin elves go to Valinor from what I have heard - they are more tied to M.E. and less likely to leave.
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Yes and no.
Sindar/sylvan are more tied to ME, true, but not following the calls of Mandos is something that happens less and less as time goes by. They've grown wiser (and more well informed). So odds are great they do go to Mandos.Some of them were trapped in ME, i.e. the Dead Marshes phantoms, but that was a violent death with the very possible adding of evil magic.
But the expected reunion would be on a much later date? yeap. The family would not necessarily rush out to Aman to the reunion.
I read somewhere that the average reimbodiment, considering the fea did want to return and he had no outstanding crimes that'd keep him under custody would be some ten years. I hardly think they'd be talking about valinorean years or else nobody would have ever returned yet in the War of the Ring timeline.
In short, the sylvan and sindar were probably aware they'd be waiting a long long time to see their loved ones again.
| Alassante wrote: |
So Gandalf's death was hard on him probably because even if he thought he would be re-embodied, he did not know when or where (usually they stay in the Undying Lands after re-embodiment) and he probably felt that Gandalf was lost to Middle Earth and M.E. elves at a time when they needed him. The elves loved Gandalf.
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Legolas might have though Gandalf was not coming back, yes. We may perhaps count the shock of the very first real feeling of fear and being threatened (he was cool enough when they were hopelessly outnumbered), plus the realisation that, 'dude, we're taking the freaking one Ring to the core of Mordor and we just lost our resident maia!'
ok, that was mean of me. but it's a point.
As for Gimli/Legolas, I'll buy the Galadriel theory. Either she told her to look more closely into the grumpy little hairy guy, or he mellowed a tad after he realised Gimli's feelings for her. We know legolas was romantic but any love, requited or otherwise, is wishful thinking (I know it is mine).
But I will point out that by the time they have the talk about Galadriel, on the boat, they were already friends. otherwise I am willing to bet Aragorn would have set the rowing arrangements differently... |
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Alassante
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Elentari, I forgot that he didn't volunteer in the book. Well lets be honest here. I have read the FOTR once and seen the movie, well a few hundred times more. "You have my bow." just seemed the way of things.
On theories for Elrond's choices, I now find myself wondering (and having not read this in any HoME or books so I have no basis of fact just a what if?) Elrond did not send the twins yet they ended up having a role later, so maybe Elrond was doing the whole "foresight" thing and knew that Legolas needed to go as the twins would be needed with the Dunedain later. Maybe he foresaw the balrog and decide Glorfindel wasn't up for another round of tag with a flaming beast. Sorry...that was just a bad joke waiting to happen.
Who knows what JRRT was thinking? Do you think he is up there laughing at all of us now speculating what he might have thought when he did something perhaps just by accident (ie Glorfindel being in two ages)? I tell you what - I bet Christopher Tolkien loves us for caring!
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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Probably.
The whole Glorfindel issue is probably Tolkien making his mind up over and over again. As the guy from Ardalambion once said, the rpoblem is not that tolkine did not make his mind... the problem is that he did it so often.
Foresight is not off the hook, though. good point.  |
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Jael
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 1
Location: USA, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: My two cent's worth |
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| Elentari wrote: |
As for Gimli/Legolas, I'll buy the Galadriel theory. Either she told her to look more closely into the grumpy little hairy guy, or he mellowed a tad after he realised Gimli's feelings for her. We know legolas was romantic but any love, requited or otherwise, is wishful thinking (I know it is mine)
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The unrequited love comment was my way of veering into "fanon" rather than book or movie. After reading far too much slash, I'm trying to find a way of explaining why Legolar never marrys. We have it from JRD's lips that Gimli never marrys because he's carrying the torch for the Lady of Lothlorien.
I'm also trying to explain the interest Legolas shows towards Aragorn -- at the Black Gates he's not making a beeline for his buddy Gimli, he's heading for Aragorn, who is about to be creamed by a cave troll. Slash aside, some fan writers have theorized it's Arwen's interests Legolas is looking out for. Maybe, but I think that's too easy.
All I can say is, story under construction. <g>
As for Aragorn putting the two of them in the boat together without them being great buddies as yet, well, Peter Jackson put John Rhys-Davies and Orlando Bloom in a boat together for safety training, and we all know how THAT turned out. <g> |
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Elentari
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Lost in elven dreams...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: My two cent's worth |
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| Jael wrote: |
As for Aragorn putting the two of them in the boat together without them being great buddies as yet, well, Peter Jackson put John Rhys-Davies and Orlando Bloom in a boat together for safety training, and we all know how THAT turned out. <g> |
Actually, I don't know. what happened? |
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Jael
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 1
Location: USA, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: My two cent's worth |
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| Elentari wrote: | | Jael wrote: |
As for Aragorn putting the two of them in the boat together without them being great buddies as yet, well, Peter Jackson put John Rhys-Davies and Orlando Bloom in a boat together for safety training, and we all know how THAT turned out. <g> |
Actually, I don't know. what happened? |
The boat tipped. Piecing the story together from the various commentaries in the EE of FOTR is a bit like watching Rashomon, but I get the feeling that a certain full figured actor shifted his weight on purpose at a time when a certain younger actor was showing off a difficult canoing maneuver for his buddies. |
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