[Moralanqua]

During a chat with a rather wise young lady, it came to me that sometimes i forget whats fact and whats fanfic.

Could it be that i have read SO many fanfics?

I have noticed this on some groups too. Some peeps can't differentiate from fact in Tolkiens books/movie inserts and the things that authors have invented.

Anyone else ever suffer from this?

I have heard some cracking things :

Haldir is a reincarnation.
Erestor was born in Aman
Thranduil is Celeborns brother/uncle/cousin
Legolas has 3 brothers.

Now, these are all interesting ideas - but where is the proof? I think its great that the authors who wrote these ideas into their stories have spun the tale so well, that readers are convinced its valid and in the books somewhere.

Thats a talent that i wish i possesed!


The burning (*excuse pun*) question which kicked this off was:

"Aegnor - fell fire or sharp flame?"

I am 99% positive his name means fell fire but i am equally sure i have heard the sharp flame ref...

Any thoughts from the experts?

[Hathor]

[Zimraphel]

Well, in Unfinished Tales, (which I do not have in front of me for the exact page number and reference) Celeborn is mentioned as a kinsman of Elu Thingol. I do not recall if Oropher (Thranduil's father) is noted as a kinsman of Thingol. The non-Aman/Sindarin/Telerin family trees are not explained, because one thing I have always been curious about is how Cirdan fits in with the House of Thingol, because it's entirely possible that he's Elwë's cousin.

[Andreth]

Hello Mora dear,

I'm sorry, but I went to bed after talking with you and didn't get to look this up until this morning. For the Aegnor question - This is from Quettaparma Quenyallo:

Aicanáro ("k") "Sharp Flame, Fell Fire", masc. name; Sindarized as Aegnor. (So in SA:nár and PM:345; MR:323 has Aicanár. VT41:14, 19 instead gives Ecyanáro as the Q form of Aegnor.)

The Sharp Flame stuck in your mind, I bet, because of the Arabeth where Finrod says something like 'duh, don't you think I know you love my brother, Aegnor, Aikanar, the Sharp Flame, swift and eager' but when you pop over to Peoples of Middle-earth it says Aika-nar means fell fire and there's no Sindarin word for 'fell, terrible, dire' but aeg would have been the word if there'd been one.

I guess the Sharp Flame is the meaning of the Sindarin version, Aegnor (aeg= maeg= sharp, like Maeglin, sharp glance) and the Quenya name Aikanaro means Fell Fire. That's the best I can figure it anyway.

This is a perfect chance to plug the website/yahoo list I do research for. It's run by another member here named Tinni and it's called CanonNOFanon. It's not there to try to establish canon or to say that fanons are horrible things, just to give a reference point to help people distinguish between the two.

Here's the URL - http://www.tinni.100megsfree5.com/canonNOfanon/

There's a link to a yahoo group there, too, where the stuff gets discussed before it goes up. I'm still dancing around with joy because I spent a lot of time last night finding facts to show that Denethor wasn't an ugly either as an old or young man and that he hated Faramir because he looked like his mother. Anyone who was described as looking like an ancient Numenorean could *not* have been ugly, I'm sorry.

That Haldir reincarnation theory you sent me still cracks me up. Very creative, but full of holes. For the others - I don't think any info was given on Erestor's background or whether or not Legolas had any siblings. It's feasible that Thranduil could have been related to Celeborn, but never said for certain anywhere. In Unfinished Tales it tells about Thranduil's father, Oropher, and how he came to the Silvan Elves to get away from the Noldor and the 'Noldorinized' Sindar. Oropher originally was from Doriath as were the group of Elves who came with him, but it doesn't say who he was related to there.

Hope this long-ass message does some good for you!


Andreth/Anna

[Andreth]

[Moralanqua]

Thank you for digging around to find that info, Anna! You are an absolute poppet!!


I see the differences now. Its all in the language and what Tolkien negated to create a word for! Either way, he still sinks my cheerio! What a hottie!

[LuthienTinuviel]

[Andreth]

There was actually an Elf named Haldir mentioned in the First Age, although it wasn't in the Silmarillion. It was in one of the volumes of History of Middle-earth, but I don't have time to look through mine right now and figure out where it was. Possibly in Peoples of Middle-earth where Christopher Tolkien was explaining how he changed Gil-galad to being a son of Fingon instead of leaving him as Orodreth's son, but I can't swear to it. Anyway, this one-time considered Elf, Haldir, was Finduilas's brother, IIRC, and he was killed either during or in the aftermath of the destruction of Nargothrond.

But the Haldir reincarnation theory that I was referring to was one that had been posted on a discussion list and Mora sent it to me to look at. The parallels this person was trying to make were ludicrous and didn't fit in with even the possible options of Elven rebirth that the professor tossed around, but was proposing this as being something that worked in with the ideas put forth in the books. That was I found amusing - not that she was trying to find a delineation there but that she was trying to tell everyone 'oh I've done all this research and this is factual and correct'.

Glorfindel was the only Elf that Professor Tolkien ever said was absolutely certain to be a reincarnation, but I don't think it's so impossible to believe there may have been others. Tolkien just made it more confusing because he liked to recycle names, although thankfully he did this less often with Elves than he did Mortals.

[LuthienTinuviel]

I find that highly interesting. Of course Tolkien can't rcycle too many names many many times... elves are supposed to live for eternity, and it doesn't make sense to have too many of the same elves. Then again, it's probably some sort of honor or something akin to it.

Now I think I don't make any sense.