[NancyBrooke]

[SpaceWeavil]

Actually I dunno, Nancy. I'm still debating this, but I just found a little bit in my Writer's Manual (whim buy #561347) that has proper nouns capitalised, as I think has been said above.

The way it's talking, I would think it would be, because the term is being used as a proper noun, instead of using the guy's name. I'm still not 100% sure though.

English is such a weird language.

[Yavanie]

okay, my two cents:
instinct says go with Al, it's not Minister Bob shortened to just Minister. It's a general reference to the minister. If you put 'the' in there indicating it is "the minister', like "the boy", "the girl" then no, don't capitalize.

However, if it is indeed Minister Joe or Father Bob and you are writing "Howdy" Father said. or "Hello" Minister answered, then yes if it is truly used as shortened version of their name, not as a reference to a particular type of person, like the minister, not the boy.

Purely instinct on this one, feel free to consult an expert guide or reference (and let us know).

[SpaceWeavil]

[Yavanie]

So instead of "Deputy First Minister Bubba" , he is referred to as The Minister (short for the Deputy First Minister) then you are probably on good footing. But the book is correct in it's general use of The Minister of A, Deputy Minister B, First Base Minister C and then stating that such a minister would need to..... (as in one from the group of officers above, but not one in particular).

Also, just write it, be consistent. Get it out to a couple of betas and see what the general consensus is. (and do let us know what they suggest).

again, my instinct, not based on looking it up in a reference.

[inglor]

.........

Inglor

[SpaceWeavil]

[Leaward]

I'm coming into the discussion a couple days late ...

I checked my Harbrace College Handbook (mine is for Canadian Writers) but the rules are pretty much similar to the American rules.


--Dr. Freda E. Watts or "Tell me, Doctor, what's the verdict?"
but every doctor, my doctor
--the War of 1812 ....but ....a space war in 1999
--Harvard University but ... a university like Harvard
--the U.S. Navy ... a strong navy
--December, Christmas .... winter, holiday
--the West, Westerners .... to fly west, western regions
--Canadian Nurses' Association ... an association for Canadian nurses
--Parkinson's disease .... flu, asthma, leukemia
--a Chihuahua, Ford trucks ... a beagle, pickup trucks (now that one confuses me because a beagle is a breed the same as a Chiahuaha but I guess it's because Chihuahua is an actual place name ... see example below...)
--two Liberal candidates (Liberal is a Canadian political party, Americans can substitute Republicans or Democrats). .... a liberal education
--the Charter of Rights ... a kind of charter of rights

From a course I took in February by Kathy Witlox (Grammar for Writers: The Almost jargon-Free Version) who is 'Grammar Girl' on the e-harlequin website and has terrific articles on grammar and punctuation: http://www.eharlequin.com/cms/learntowrite/ltwSection.jhtml;jsessionid=RMXMNRLFHZ14ZLAUEAKCAOQ?itcType=grammarGirl

Capitalization:

People's names: Jim Walker, Trish Cramer
Business Names: Westside Convenience, Microsoft
Government bodies: Ministry of Education, Department of Motor Vehicles
Place names: Scotland, Ontario, Australia, South American (and their adjectival forms: Scottish, Ontarian, Australian)
Professional titles that are used with names (or often in lieu of) Dr Li, Father Irving, Mrs. Jones, Aunt Sara
Other titles, including those of books, magzines, movies, etc.
Other names including those of teams, boats, products (Blue Jays, Yankees, Americruiser, Coke, Pepsi)
Military titles with names: General Schmidt, Private Ryan

When not to capitalize:

Most professional titles unless they're used as a substitute for a name "Prime Minister, when will the US open the door to our cattle?" or The prime minister congratulated the minister of education and the teachers that worked for the ministry.

Business departments unless used without an article:
Both Bob and his wife worked in the marketing department
Both Bob and his wife worked in Marketing

Titles that are preceded by an article:
Beth's uncle Mike cradled the newborn in his big arms.
The plane's captain announced he was ready for takeoff.

Most dog breed names, unless they contain a proper noun or its adjectival form. German shepherd, golden retriever, Labrador retriever

Directional words unless part of a region "the East Coast" but "drive east on Adelaide"

And as was pointed out in an earlier post...

My mother said I could go to the party. Mother said I could go to the party.

Hope that helps!

[SpaceWeavil]

That's great of you to go to the trouble of putting that list there. thanks

The only one I'm still weird on is the Prime Minister one, as every textbook I have has it capitalised no matter what. Possibly that's a distinction between American English and the British English I'm using.

Mind you, saying that, this is the textbook on constitutional law that has 'beings' instead of begins, 'trail' instead of trial, and Sots Law instead of Scots Law. I'm beginning to think that particular publisher has been skimping on proof-reader's fees lately.

[Leaward]

[SpaceWeavil]

[Leaward]

Even within each country there are different rules according to whatever book you go by, for instance, Daw the Minstrel uses the Chicago Book of Rules for her editing, but others I know use the AP standards. I use the Harbrace College Handbook, but I could just as easily use one of several other Canadian standards put out usually by newspapers such as the Toronto Star. I'm sure that applies to England as well.

Plus grammar is fluid and changes with the time. For instance, comma usage has definitely changed since I was in school. Now they go with 'open punctuation' meaning you don't need to use as many commas. *shrugs* I can't keep up,

I think the main thing I've noticed my beta's looking for is that my writing is consistent puncutation and grammar-wise So if you use single quotes for your dialogue, use single quotes all the way through (unless you're from the Netherlands perhaps ... Rhapsody will have to clear that up for me) Same with capitalizing Elves or Rangers for instance. For that I go back to Tolkien and say 'if it's good enough for him, that's how I'll do it!" and then I still forget, LOL.

[ellisk]

I just read all this because it's been bothering me too and here's my conclusion: I hate English--I'm going to start writing this stuff in Spanish. The rules are much more straigt forward and I speak it better anyway.