[cymrulady]

Hello everyone. First of all, if this question appears twice, I can only apologise but I've been having a bit of trouble posting these last few days!

Anyway, I'd be grateful for your opinions on the following - what happens to Elves when they pass to the Halls of Mandos? I checked a resource and came up with this:


"The dwellings of the Doomsman of the Valar, the mighty being properly called Námo, though he was more often given the name Mandos from his own halls. The name comes from two Elvish words meaning 'prison' and 'fortress', and the Halls stood on the western shores of Valinor, looking out across the Encircling Sea. They were said to grow in size as the World aged, and their walls were hung with the tapestries of Námo's spouse Vairë, depicting all the events of unfolding history.

It was to the Halls of Mandos that the spirits of Elves and Men were gathered to await their different fates, and so Mandos was given its common name of the Halls of Waiting. After a time, the near-immortal Elves could be re-embodied, and return from the Halls to their kin in Aman. Men had a different fate, a fate which, even among the Lords of Valinor, only Mandos and Manwë truly understood."

Encyclopaedia of Arda

Now what I don't understand is, 're-embodied'. Does this mean they are reborn, ie, babies, or do they just trot across and re-join their relatives and friends, wherever they are, in the Undying Lands. I would really appreciate your opinions (and, I apologise if this question has been asked before).

Thanks

Cymrulady

[picara]

This is from Laws and Customs of the Eldar and answers your question, I think:

A houseless fea that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the incarnate world through child-birth. Only thus could it return. [Save in rare and strange cases: that is, where the body that the fea had forsaken was whole, and remained still coherent and incorrupt. But this could seldom happen; for death unwilling could occur only when great violence was done to the body; and in death by will, such as at times befell because of utter weariness or great grief, the fea would not desire to return, until the body, deserted by the spirit, was dissolved. This happened swiftly in Middle-earth. In Aman only was there no decay. Thus Miriel was there rehoused in her own body, as is herafter told.] For it is plain that the provision of a bodily house for a fea, and the union of fea with hroa, was committed by Eru to the Children, to be achieved in the act of begetting.

As for this re-birth, it was not an opinion, but known and certain. For the fea re-born became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after it had acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, its memory would awake; until, when the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented, [In some cases a fea re-born might have the same parents again. For instance, if its first body had died in early youth. But this did not often happen; neither did a fea necessarily re-enter its own former kin, for often a great length of time passed before it wished or was permitted to return.] and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendor of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.

The Eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know. Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the Re-born (they say) are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs. But many, doubtless, that have twice died do not wish to return.

[cymrulady]

Thanks Picara,

I 'll have to read this through again later, but I think it says pretty clearly they are born again as babies and at a later stage, regain their past memories of their 'other' life - yes?

Hmm - have to re -think my story ending then - lol!

Cymrulady

[picara]

[cymrulady]

Actually, it already is under that category (AU I mean) . I just had a bit of a dilema with the ending. It's my first story, and to post here, where everyone is so knowlegable, is a bit intimidating. I don't want to look a complete prat and write something glaringly wrong - lol!

So, let's see if I've got this right! It would acceptable to bend the rules a bit, PROVIDING, the story has the AU label?

Cymrulady

[Yavanie]

Cyrulady,

just throw a wrench into the plot, I am sure I read a note by Christopher Tolkien that this was his father's original idea, that to be reembodied was to be born into a new body and experience a second childhood with the two experiences of each life melding later into a whole, and so the regaining former memories later is a good way to look at it.

the wrench: Christopher said his father later abandoned this concept thinking it unfair to a couple that agree to conceive a child of their own union and end up with someone else's, so to speak. And so reembodyment meant getting back the body that you had inhabited previously,well not that one exactly as it was usually destroyed or maimed. And so the fea contains basically a "blueprint' of the hroa it inhabited and thereby the the new body was recreated.

Anyway, the point is, I think you would be in good standing to use either premise, and what that means for the fanfic writer is use which one works for you!!

sometimes I appreciate that Tolkien was vague or changed his own mind on things. But sometimes it is equally frustrating when what you really wanted to know was: is there a definintive answer.

If you really want to know, ask and if no one else knows it right off hand I will see if I can ferret out where I read that.

hope this helps and doesn't frustrate too much.

[hope18]

So what are we to think happened to Haldir in the movie after he died? That he's gone to Valinor and is back in his body?

[cymrulady]

Um, dunno really! I'm sort of all overcome with confusion. Seriously, though, thanks for your help. I'm still wondering if I can keep to my original story line.

Oh heck!!

Welshlady

[Yavanie]

Hope,

Well since Haldir didn't die in the book, my opinion is you are free to interpret that any way you choose.

As for if you want to work with him dying at Helm's Deep, you could envision him reborn in Valinor to an Elven couple or you could envsion him being held in Mandos for some time (it was said this was so for one of two reasons, until a fea that had rebelled became contrite and so some sort of 'penance' was achieved or they would be held in Mandos until such hurts as the fea received in Arda would have had time to heal). So however long he was in Mandos, at some point he could be reembodied as that wonderful Marchwarden and be living happily in a flet in Valinor.

Personally, the possibilities are wide open and make for great stories whatever an author chooses to do with them.

Tokien created such a fun sandbox to play in.
btw, these are my assessments of the reading I have managed to do over the last year. Others may differ and I would welcome their opinions, especially if, unlike me at the moment, they can point me to the right places to go read about it.

Cymrulady, as for keeping your original plot, unless you have him reappearing on some planet in outerspace, I suspect you can use whatever plot line suits your story. Since this doesn't appear to be a nailed down issue, have fun with it.

lShall I be ooking forward to a new story soon??

[cymrulady]

Thank you, Yavanie! You've put my mind at ease. I'm going to keep writing the story as planned.

Er, actually, my story is being posted as we speak. It's called Forever Yours and is up to chapter 8.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

Welshlady

[Alassante]

I had similar questions with my new story and everything I found countered everything else I found. I know that Morgoth's Ring - History of Middle Earth 10 has a huge amount of stuff on it. Thanks to a friend that had that book (thanks Viv ) I have documentation to back up my theory. But there is also documentation to counteract it, I am sure. I think this is such a hazy area, you can find whatever you need to justify it as long as you don't have Haldir coming back as high Queen of the orcs!(although that would be an interesing story I am sure! ) Just make a note on your story or be prepared if someone questions you about it. The most popular case of re-embodiment isn't even set in stone - Glorfindel's history is forever in debate.

Keep in mind, this is fan fiction for enjoyment. Tolkien left so many loopholes in his work that he gave us creative freedom to do many things. If you have some research documenting your theory - go with it and enjoy it. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to read it.

In the books, Legolas never had a romance yet he has millions in the fan fiction world. Does that mean he never had a romance? No. Legolas' history was not discussed before the FOTR. He could have had a wife that left for the Undying Lands that was gone before he joined the fellowship. Who knows. Researchers much smarter than I am cannot even nail down his age.

Now I need to run before the Haldir fans see the Queen remark...

[cymrulady]

Queen of the Orcs! Good God! What are you thinking? ROFL!! Thanks for your thoughts, though. I understand what you're all trying to say, I think!

If it can't be proved or disproved, then it's OK to stamp with my own interpretation (within reason) - right?

Cymrulady

[SpaceWeavil]

[cymrulady]

Thank you, SpaceWeavil - excellent advice. I'll do that, and hope for the best!

Cymrulady

[hope18]

Wow this made my day! I hated it when Haldir died in TTT. I still don't understand why he had to die.