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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Yavanie wrote: | Cyrulady,
just throw a wrench into the plot, I am sure I read a note by Christopher Tolkien that this was his father's original idea, that to be reembodied was to be born into a new body and experience a second childhood with the two experiences of each life melding later into a whole, and so the regaining former memories later is a good way to look at it.
the wrench: Christopher said his father later abandoned this concept thinking it unfair to a couple that agree to conceive a child of their own union and end up with someone else's, so to speak. And so reembodyment meant getting back the body that you had inhabited previously,well not that one exactly as it was usually destroyed or maimed. And so the fea contains basically a "blueprint' of the hroa it inhabited and thereby the the new body was recreated.
Anyway, the point is, I think you would be in good standing to use either premise, and what that means for the fanfic writer is use which one works for you!!
sometimes I appreciate that Tolkien was vague or changed his own mind on things. But sometimes it is equally frustrating when what you really wanted to know was: is there a definintive answer.
If you really want to know, ask and if no one else knows it right off hand I will see if I can ferret out where I read that.
hope this helps and doesn't frustrate too much. |
You think you read that somewhere Ya??? Well how about that~?~?~
Author’s Notes: All quotes are from History of Middle Earth, Volume 10 – Morgoth’s Ring.
Regarding the fate of the fëa of Maeglin:
How did Maeglin end up with Morgoth?:
Page 223: In Morgoth’s ring, Tolkien tells of the summons, or invitation, of Mandos to the fëa, upon departing from the body or hroa. Mandos ‘invites’ the fëa to the Halls of Waiting, though they can’t be forced to heed the summons. The fëar that ignore the call of Mandos are sometimes those who are, as Maeglin is in my story, committed to the darkness and then pass on to be with Morgoth and do his bidding.
Can Maeglin really motor around and check on folk in Middle Earth?
Page 224: Tolkien states that the houseless fëar wandering Arda can, and if the living allow it, do commune with them. Among these houseless fëar are those who “were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone.” Tolkien goes on to say that some of these fëar are searching for bodies to inhabit, as they are unwilling to get them in the proper way, through the Valar. He also said that the wicked of the unhoused fëar would take over, or possess a body, or hroa, if they are able. Once taken over, the houseless fëa dominate the will as well as the body of the host and use them to their own bidding. But we won’t go there right now.
Okay, now the tricky part. How in the heck does Morgoth plan to re-embody Maeglin?
Page 362 – Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - The Converse of Manwë and Eru. It is said the Valar had the skill necessary to create hroa:
“Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fëa be re-born as a child.'
Manwë said: 'Is it Thy will that we should attempt these things? For we fear to meddle with Thy Children.'
Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in these things. '"
Further on “Eru said: ‘I give you authority. The skills ye have already, if ye will take heed.’”
So what’s Morgoth going to do, ask permission?
Page 226: Tolkien goes on to further state that it is not lawful for the Valar to decide who is and who is not re-embodied, not that it is not possible for them to do this without permission. And so, with this thin permission, I have taken great license.
So how does Morgoth know what to do? Does he have a recipe?
Page 362: It is also stated that each fëa contains a blueprint, per se, of its own hroa, which would allow the Valar to reconstruct it exactly how it had been.
“Eru said: ‘Look and ye will find that each spirit of My Children retaineth in itself the full imprint and memory of its former house; and in its nakedness it is open to you, so that ye may clearly perceive all that is in it. After this imprint ye may make it again such a house in all particulars as it had ere evil befell it. Thus ye may send it back to the lands of the Living.’”
So what? Morgoth’s going to run a kiddy day-care and re-raise Maeglin?
There are differing statements regarding how an hroa was reconstructed. Originally, Tolkien had stated that in order for a fëa to be rehoused, the body must be reborn. Tolkien later changed his mind when people got creeped out about the idea of a mother finding out that she had given birth to someone else’s child and was amended
Page 363 – Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth – This is Christopher speaking of his father.
“He was here abandoning, and for good, the long-rooted conception of re-birth as the mode by which the Elves might return to carnate life:”
Won’t Maeglin be a bit banged up from the fall?
Page 363 – Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth – Christopher then goes on to discuss the using of the hroa blueprint to recreate the hroa as it had been before it died, in its fully- grown state before, as Eru proclaimed, ‘evil befell it.’ Since it is mentioned elsewhere, I believe the term ‘evil’ refers to the unnatural state of physical death of an elf. And ergo, I’m going to assume this to mean, undamaged as in, if Maedhros were to be re-embodied, it would be with two hands or in this case, Maeglin with an unbashed-in head.
That’s my happy conjecture for the purpose of this story. I reserve the right to change my mind if the need should arise in another tale. Stay tuned for more twisted wickedness.
 
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Alassante
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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So Ghetto - break it down for me simply. Can Haldir come back as the Queen of the Orcs and marry Lurtz?  I hope so, otherwise I am just going to have to make him get MPRG'd my Legolas to finish off my "M.E. on Crack" series. 
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cymrulady
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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Location: Wales
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Ghetto! I think that makes things pretty clear, but how about another question?
How long do you think an Elf's fea would stay in the HoM? I mean, would they just pop in and out, or would they have to hang about for a while for their new body to be made from the 'blueprint'?
Sorry to bang on about this 'Halls of Mandos' thing, but my knowledge is really sketchy (and you're all so knowing!!)
So - er....anyone like a stab at that one?
Thanks
Cymrulady 
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 426
Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: Mandos |
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The Halls are Namo are a terrible place. It is worse than any dentist's waiting room with one issue of Sports Illustrated that everyone must fight over!
Haldir (that is, the movie beauty who was slain) must be in torment since he hates sports.
LOL! (I could not resist...)
Then again, I always (plot bunny!) imagined his fea encountering Vaire...and then her cutting him a deal... 
--Eruanna
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cymrulady wrote: | How long do you think an Elf's fea would stay in the HoM? I mean, would they just pop in and out, or would they have to hang about for a while for their new body to be made from the 'blueprint'?
Sorry to bang on about this 'Halls of Mandos' thing, but my knowledge is really sketchy (and you're all so knowing!!)
So - er....anyone like a stab at that one? |
Well, being the brilliant mathemiticain who can't spell it either, that I am, I can break that down for you real quick. Eru says, ya gotta atone and you gotta receive healing. That means, for me, 14 days, I'll be getting paroled before Glorfindel. Al, she'll be in there keeping Feanor company until the Silmarils come marching home.
BTW, and really just in case you didn't know, we don't mind showing off how thoroughly dense we are on a regular basis, but the best book for all of this info is HoME 10 aka, Morgoth's Ring
I'll just be over here...  Til your next question.
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Alassante
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | Al, she'll be in there keeping Feanor company until the Silmarils come marching home.
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Hey - thats okay. I am teaching Feanor and the boys strip poker tomorrow night.  If Mandos sends me back now, I might have to kill you Ghetto then myself just so we can both come back! 
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cymrulady
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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Location: Wales
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Ghetto - I'll go and have a quick (?) trawl through it!
BTW - Strip Poker????
Any room at the table for one more?
Cymrulady
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