[LuthienTinuviel]

Ghettoelleth, your acute assessment is to die for *grin*. Salutecha gal!

However, in line with the original intent of the thread (I missed the deleted thread), getting to the whole Islamic idea of how it is not viewed positively today is a rather sticky thing. Same as how Christianity has church breakaways and different ways of intrepretation with Protestant, Catholic, and Anglican, etc as is Islam with Shite, Sunni, Syafie, Hambali, etc. Culturally, though, I believe I can comment a little, while attempting to stay as neutral as possible. Generalization for and from either side is a fallacy I believe is called out-group homogenization and in-group differentiation (i.e they're all the same, we're different as day and night).

Thing is, in aspects of women's rights, I blame it all on culture. Hollywood and west media's potrayal of the Arab Muslims are never flattering to begin with, but you really can't discredit their passion in the stuff they do and believe in. Although my personal opinion is that it often leads to idiocy. Amazing what sheople use to justify their actions.

As a Muslim or for any interested scholar to really understand the Quran, (which is a neverending process, no kidding Islam is a freakin' lifestyle, not solely religion) you have to dig into those lovely historical books on the lives (think Egyptian era and beyond) of the people back then, the culture, the geographical aspects, and how it lies with the society and of its importance, than correlate with the Quran's words. I daresay the Quran's a pretty vague holybook, it's written in a way that should you study it fully, it can be reapplied to any current situation or changing times. The problem lies when people take the words literally, to only follow it shallowly because it said so.

An example would be that when in trade (or business dealings), it was written that if there is a need, there should be two women witnesses which is equal to one male witness. The reason for this was that back then there is a lack of proper structured education system for women (in this case, knowing what's trade is all about). There was risk of having ladies falling victim to crooks, or worse therefore with the practical reasons of women's safety etc and that's why it was that. These days, we don't need two women to witness a business dealing, one is sufficient because of our education system which is universally superior for women compared to 2000 or so years ago. We are as good as men these days.

In the Quran women was never ever undermined. In one situation, the prophet Mohammed illustrated, when asked, of to whom your respect should lie the highest, he answered three times when the same question was asked, your Mother, and when asked again for the fourth time, then your Father.

What's interesting about it is to my knowledge, Islam allows women to lead as an "Imam" for female worshippers in prayers. There is a recognition, however how little known, that women are capable of leading others in prayers or in other aspects.

I believe there is a debate about whether women should be allowed to become priests in Christian congregation (There are women priests in Africa, due to the lack of the number of people who wishes to become priests I believe, but the Vatican City doesn't acknowledge it, and I think the current hardliner Pope doesn't agree with it).

Regardless of the really long post I have written, I stand corrected. As a debater (yes, we had this debate like 4 hours ago), the knowledge I know of is basically of research and taught by our rather eccentric trainer, but if you can kindly provide more explanation or give your opinions, I would really love you for it. And yes, it's my favourite area of interest.

Please forgive me if it offends anyone. It's not my intent. (Taking in mind the sensitivity of the issue.)

[Texasgirl]

I defnitely agree with what Drangon Eyes said earlier, and with what a lot of other people said. I'm afraind in my earlier post I may have said Islam, but I was mistaken and it is humananity that is to blame. For example is other religions, (though this one is pretty universal) there is Eve committing original sin in Eden, Mary Magdelene the prostitute in Christianity, and Delilah in Samson and Delilah.

But other religion honor women as well. In Judaism there is Ruth, in Christianity Mother Mary, and and as I forget who said earlier, the matter with Mohammed (sp?) and "Your Mother".

Now I'm just using these three religions as examples, but I think I'm pretty sure in saying that every religion probably both honors women and calls them the devil.

I guess my point is that it goes every way in terms of holy scriptures (i.e., the Bible, Torah, Koran) - but in the Middle East, there still are very high statistics of abuse from husbands and fathers.

[Alassante]

I think that it has been said before but I think people often use religion as excuse for doing the wrong thing. If you try hard enough, you can find a way to misinterpret all religions to justify anything.

It basically boils down to humanity is flawed by designed. Everyone has to do what they feel is right or deal with the consequences of their mistakes and/or conscience choice to do the wrong thing. Whether they deal with it when it happens - like with guilt or regret - or later when they are judged at the end of their life, I am a firm believer that one day they will pay for their sins. We all do. Which is why most of us try to atone for them and/or ask forgiveness, whether it be a formal prayer for forgiveness or just a mental thought of "Oh God, please forgive me."

We will never have a perfect society so it is up to everyone to do his or her own part to live in this one as gently as possible. We can only do our part. We cannot decide how other people should be living so we are forced to learn to be tolerant of others' decisions on their way of life. When it comes to a point where you feel strongly against something, you will be moved to protest but then you must face the consequences of that protest.

It’s all about doing what you think is right and facing consequences.
This is where we all sing "We are the World"

[Texasgirl]

Well said, Al.

I'd also like to add "In the Name of all Our Children" to the playlist.

[RoxieRxChicago]

I'm not really sure how to say what I want to say so I'll just jump right in. Islam is a relatively young religion in the scheme of things. Christianity and Judaism have been around much longer. And when you consider the history of the entire world, they are themselves younger religions. In it's early days, Christianity was a very patriarchal religion because it stemmed mostly from Judaism, which was also a very patriarchal religion. It has only been in recent history that women have been allowed to hold positions of leadership in either religion. I believe that just as Christianity and Judaism have begun to grow out of (notice I said "begun") their oppressive, patriarchal system, Islam eventually will too. But it's going to take a lot of kicking and screaming and will be a long, and painful process. Humanity, by nature is extremely resistant to change. When you add religious convictions to the mix, we are even more resistant to change. Several people have said that people use religion to justify all kinds of crazy things, and that's very true... sad, but very true. I agree whole-heartedly with GhettoElleth. People have got to learn to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions instead of blaming everything on their respective religions, or getting caught up in the mob mentality. But that only way that is ever going to happen is if we encourage open dialogue. People need to be encouraged to ask questions and actively look for answers. So many are content to just blindly believe what they have been told from birth because it is so much easier to let someone else tell what to think, what to believe, and how to act than it is to find those things out for yourself. And I think that stems from fear more than anything else. Fear of finding out that things are not always as they seem, fear of being rejected by your friends and family, fear that what you have alwasy been told is 100% right, is not 100% right, and then not knowing how to handle that knowledge. The truth is (and I know this is going to make some people angry, but this is what I believe and what has been my experience) that none of us is 100% right. It has been said before that Humanity is flawed so humanity is responsible for the fallibility of religion, and the fallibilty of government.

Anyway, the moral of this little diatribe is to be responsible for yourself and your actions. Know that no one is 100% right when it comes to religion and government and be willing to listen to different opinions and realize that they all have merit in some way even if you disagree.

I've kind of gone off on a tangent... but my point is still here somewhere.... oh yeah... oppression of women is abysmal, but nearly every religious group has been guilty of it at one point or another in their long histories. That certainly doesn't make it right, but we have to realize that change does not happen over night. Especially in countries where the majority of the people are not educated to the extent that those of us in the western world are. They are much more resistant to that change. Look how long it has taken for women to be allowed to be rabbis, look how long it has taken for women to be allowed to be pastors in Protestant churches. Women are still not allowed to be Catholic priests. The only religion that has never oppressed women is Wicca (and most other forms of paganism) as far as I know and it is as ancient as the earth itself.

Anyway, sorry this went on so long But I couldn't resist saying my piece. I also want to say that I am impressed by the level of maturity I have seen on this site. This is pretty explosive territory and I think you have all done a wonderful job of expressing your opinions with out being argumentative close minded assholes (like have seen many other places when something like this is brought up).... It's a novelty. I like it here more and more every day

[ghettoelleth]

[LuthienTinuviel]

Btw, I nabbed this off wikipedia which nabbed this from the Malaysian Sisters in Islam website

This is the Islamic perspective on Women's Rights, more or less a rough draft, but it better than a blank page none-the-less. Hopefully more people would contribute here as well. =)

"In Islam, sexual desire, pleasure and satisfaction are legitimate rights for both spouses. The Qur'anic verse Al Baqarah, 2:223 is mistakenly interpreted as a support for the husband's absolute right of sexual contact with his wife whenever his wishes. In fact, the verse deals with 'how' this contact is practised, not 'when' (anna in Arabic not mata). It teaches that a husband ought to enjoy sex with his wife in whatever natural and productive way..."

(in 'Equality in Marriage: A Shari'ah Perspective', Dr Fathi Osman)

"From intensive studies and extensive consultations with contemporary 'Ulama no verse in the Qur'an (nass) can be found which forbids a husband or wife to space their pregnancies or limit the number according to their physical, economic or cultural abilities... In fact the Prophet warned against a woman getting pregnant during the period of breast-feeding calling it al-ghayl, ghaylah or gheyal (assault on the child) ...as al-azl (coitus interruptus or withdrawal) was permitted so by analogical reasoning (qiyas), other methods that can pregnancy are allowed."

(in 'Contraception, Abortion and Reproductive Issues in the Legacy of Islam', Dr Abdel Rahim Omran)

"Muslim women, like all women of the world, have the need for and the entitlement to good reproductive and sexual health, to be able to make independent decisions on their reproductive and sexual lives (as well as decisions made mutually in consultation or shared with their partners). Muslim reformists and feminists who value the principles of justice and equality, and believe that these principles are enshrined in the Qur'an, see a parallel, rather than a contradiction with the universal social justice values intrinsic to human rights. Individual choice as the core of sexual and reproductive rights and gender equality, is interpreted as compatible with Islamic values. ".

(in 'Reproductive Health and Rights: The Importance for Muslim Women', Rashidah Abdullah)

"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans,marry women of your choice, two, or three or four; But if you fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one ..... That will be more suitable,to prevent you from doing injustice." Surah Al-Nisa' 4:3 (translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali) "You are never able to be fair and just as between women, Even if it is your ardent desire...". Surah An Nisa 129

Many forget the authentic hadith (as reported in Sunan Ibn Majah) which reported that the Prophet (s.a.w.), when asked if he would permit Saidina Ali to marry another woman, said that he would not, "....unless and until Ali Ibn Abi Talib divorces my daughter, for surely she is part of me and what troubles and agitates her, troubles and agitates me too; and what harm befalls her befalls me too."

In other Muslim countries such as Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt and Iran, they have adopted the ruling that a husband who has agreed in his marriage contract not to take another wife during the marriage, is bound by that stipulation. The awareness about being able to do this is high in those countries and many couples do insert this stipulation into the marriage contract.


~~taken from the Sisters of Islam website : http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/publications/health.htm

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Women%27s_Rights_Action_Watch"

Ok, maybe it's relevent, maybe it's not, but at least it'll further tone down the myth that Islam oppresses women. People oppresses women, not religion.

Btw Roxie, I'm luvin' ya too

P.s = Didja know that 14,000 women in Russia suffers from domestic violence per year ? In the US the figures are only around 1,430 I believe, gotten from 50 facts that should change the world by Jessica Williams (Wills? not sure). Eeep!!! And these are only the ones reported! Plus 44 million women are in fact missing in China due to their one-child per couple policy. Their births are never registered (due to the culture favoring boys), education and welfare ignored... *gulp*

Y'know, I feel that I'm turning into some sort of women activist here. The more I delve into it out of curiosity, the more I feel pissed. WAO, here I come!

[Robbie]

I'm just wondering why this thread is still going on, especially after the initial post that started it all was deleted...?

Never discuss politics (or similar issues such as "toilet set up or down?" on a forum) - it only gets people's back up and someone gets offended....