[nosferangel]

I'm very interested in all 'before's' in the LOTR characters history.
Sauron was connected to Melkor in ... what way?
Can anyone fill me in a little on their histories?

[Varda]

Read the Silmarillion and afterwards (but only for the die hard fans) the Unfinished Tales and the History of Middle Earth series (plus Tolkien's Letters). [Assuming you've already read both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings]

or

Go to the Online Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda and browse around, it's far from finished but already contains troves of historical fact - and most of it is amazingly accurate.

May the light of the stars illuminate the scrolls you seek.

[nosferangel]

can't you just fill me in on sauron just a little?
what is it that upset him?
mama never hugged him?
daddy hugged him too much?

[Varda]

Hmm, that's a tough question. Why are some people evil? Why are some saints? Sauron was in many ways seduced to the dark side by Morgoth, but why did Morgoth turn evil in the first place? Probably because it was in his nature - he wanted power, he wanted to be worshipped by all the other Ainur, he was the greatest of the Order, and Beautiful and Fair and he seduced others with promises of power, gifts, and then he was corrupted from within... I think it's a case of power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely. They weren't created evil (neither Melkor/Morgoth nor Annatar/Sauron nor other Maia (including the Balrogs), less true of Orcs (bred from captured tortured Elves), Trolls (made in the image of the Ents), who knows about Dragons, and Vampires. In many ways Melkor was like Feanor - his inner fire burned to brightly and clouded his reason...

It's really hard to explain - it's kind of the "why was Hitler who he was?", or "why did Stalin become an evil bastard?" type of question.

The vast majority of men do not want to be evil, yet some of them still are - they manage to delude themselves into thinking that their actions are correct - even though they are obviously evil when one looks back upon them (harder to determine without historical perspective).

See Andreth's second story for (one possible / a) take on this issue - one which show him as a lot more positive than you gleam from the books.

[Varda]

As for who Sauron and Morgoth were?

Morgoth Bauglir is the name given by the Firstborn to the greatest Ainur created by Eru Iluvatar before the founding of Ea (the World that is). Sauron is the name given to the Ainur Annatar. Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur, a Vala whose power surpassed even that of Manwe Sulime (my spouse). Annatar was one of many lesser (as in not as powerful as the Valar) Ainur, who are collectively referred to as the Maiar (Gandalf/Mithrandir/Olorin and Saruman and Radagast were also power-bound Maia, while Melian, Ilmare, Eonwe were unlimited Maiar [were power-bound means limited by the Valar to prevent them from interfering with straight brute force, this limit is broken/unsealed by Gandalf when fighting the Balrog - an evil Maia; later when Gandalf is sent back by the Powers that Be he is far greater then before because he is no longer limited, he still does not have the authorization to utilize brute force unless in dire circumstances - the World of Mortal Men must stand or fall alone]).

The treachery of Morgoth began before the founding of the World - already during the Song did Morgoth rise above the others and cause dissent, swaying those weaker in voice and power around him to follow his lead, while others sung in harmony accroding to the will of Eru. Ea follows this Song to the last note, but none of us (the Valar) is wise enough to understand all the harmonies and all the voices of the Song of Creation - each only fully understands Our own part and fragments of the Others, the greater the Ainur, the more He understands, but none of Us know All - that is only the province of Iluvatar.

May the light of the heavens enlighten thee.

[nosferangel]

it's starting to make sense
what book you say I can
find all that information in?

[BittenBuggy]

I am writing a chapter-by-chapter summary of the Silmarillion (it's posted on this site) you should check it out *cough* shameless self-promotion *cough* It should answer your overall Morgoth/Sauron/Valar/Elven/Human/All-Other-Useless-Knowledge-Questions

[nosferangel]

where where how!!!

[BittenBuggy]

Here's the URL....boy do I love appriciative enthusiasm....

http://www.openscrolls.net/fanfic/story.php?no=530

[sindohte]

This book is an indispensible resource for a general overview of all things ME related. The Complete Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster

But as BittenBuggy said, The Silmarillion is the best starting point to learn about Sauron and Melkor. In my opinion, it is not a book you can sit down and read from beginning to end, but it is very engaging. I suggest picking a story that strikes your fancy and then using a book like the one listed above or the online Encylopedia of Arda to help you out with the various characters.

And your shameless self-promotion worked BittenBuggy, for I am going over immediately to take a look at your chapter by chapter summary of the Silmarillion.

[BittenBuggy]

Woo Hoo, but please be gentle, working without beta

[Varda]

[Andreth]

I can pitch in here with what I've figured out about Sauron's motives. In Letters of Tolkien, he says that Sauron had fair intentions when he first approached the Elves in the Second Age and wanted to redress some of the wrongs he'd done in the First Age with Morgoth. After that, perhaps things didn't move fast enough for Sauron, but he decided that the world would be better ruled by him. He thought that Eru had abandoned Arda and that the Valar's intentions were no different than his, wanting to rule what he considered to be lesser beings. He had no problems with allowing beings to live and let live, as long as they lived under his rule. In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien says that Sauron would not have minded allowing the Numenoreans continue in their kingdom, as long as they bowed to him. In Sauron's mind, the world would be a better place ruled by him because he could keep it neat and organized, where as the beings he considered to be of less intelligence, which was basically everybody, would just mess it up.

Tolkien says this is why Sauron was drawn to Melkor/Morgoth in the first place - because of his love for organization and no wasted effort, and Melkor seemed to be a guy who wanted to get things done. In the Silm it says that many of the Maia were drawn to Melkor/Morgoth during his days of greatness and remained with him during his descent into darkness. This may or may not have applied to Sauron. By the Third Age, Sauron seemed to care for nothing but achieving full power and domination over others, bending others to his will. In Tolkien's words, "At the beginning of the Second Age he [Sauron] was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all “reformers” who want to hurry up with “reconstruction” and “reorganization” are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.”

Annatar/Sauron is a major character in the story I've been writing and I try to research all the characters to get a good sense of who they are before I write them. In the course of researching Sauron's character, I discovered that Tolkien seems to have intended for him to be a much more complex character than merely the evil being he had become by the Third Age.

I've no doubt that many people will have trouble swallowing my interpretation of Sauron, but I really think there's a lot more to him that what we saw in the Silmarillion.

[nosferangel]

THIS is exactly what I've been asking!!!

thanks dude!

now I got something to work on

now I have another basic question:

what is the difference, if there is one, between Eorlingas and Rohirrim, and is the Medusafeld the same as the Golden Hall?

[BittenBuggy]

Ha, my specialty is the Valar, Elves and Numenorians, after that, I'm useless. So I'll just let somebody smarter answer that for you