[Alassante]

This may have been discussed before but I haven't seen it so that's why I thought I would bring it up. I have been noticing that alot of Tolkien's characters have had mother or at least female issues. By that I mean -

Elrohir, Elladan, and Arwen - mother tortured by orcs, causes her to go to Valinor and the twins to go on an orc slaying spree

Eowyn, Eomer, and Theodred - both Theoden's wife and sister died leaving him to raise the kids (although I am not sure how old Theodred was at the time, he might have been an adult)

Boromir and Faramir - mother died when Faramir was very young and Denethor raised them

Feanor - mother faded after giving birth to him

Sons of Feanor - mother stayed behind in Aman after their horrible oath (she was right to do so but I imagine they might have gotten ticked)

Also some of the bigger characters have fathers named but no mother - Celebrimbor (Curufin's wife), Legolas (Thranduil's wife), Aredhel, Fingon, and Turgon (Fingolfin's wife), Gil-Galad (Fingon's wife if in fact Gil Galad is his son of which there are debates) just to name some of the ones I can think of. And these are all elves - I am sure there are even more humans with missing wife/mother's names.

But the on the other hand the women he does discuss are like totally Mary Sue - Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn, Melian, Elwing, Haleth - or victims that pull at your heartstrings- Aredhel, Celebrian, Miriel, Nerdanel, etc.

Am I reading too much into this or is it possible that Tolkien did not know how to write a believable female part that was middle of the road?

[Neniel]

Well, from what little I know about Tolkien's life, he had completely idolized his mother growing up. Together they shared his first journeys in the world of fantasy, and through her his love for strange languages that connected him to worlds unseen was awakened.

But (again if I'm not mistaken, my memory is kind of sketchy) he lost his mother in a quite young age. The only other important woman in his life was his wife, with whom he was madly in love. It only makes sense that, through his life as a soldier in WW and as an academic in a man-governed university world, his knowledge of women was... not as casual, let's say. Or at least that's how I always saw things.

So, the loss of his own mother accounts for all the poor motherless elves and men . His love for his wife can be seen as the motive for all the tragic love stories through his tales (i.e. the inscription "Beren" and "Luthien" on their grave). Can we dare suppose that his wife's effect and personality gave birth to Galadriel and Eowyn, the two most powerful female forms?

Either way, I do believe the above are oversimplefying the matter. It is also true that Tolkien's male characters were quite intricate and complicated as well. Maeglin and Grima, Thranduil, Denethor, Fëanor, Elrond... every single one of them seems to be carrying a heavy past and they make each and every one of us itching to imagine what it would be like to dwelve in their minds. It is one of the reasons Tolkien's world became so popular and loved. None of his characters are shallow. The deeper you look, the more you find.



PS: After remaining serious for this long and tiring my poor mind, I will now crawl back to my shady corner

[ghettoelleth]

Dude, Tridentine Catholic, Madonna Complex. I'll bet there's a picture of him in the DSMIV regarding the psychodynamics of Oedipal conflict issues.

And Fingolfin's wife was Anairë

[Cressida]

IIRC, he was 12 when his mother died. It would be pretty surprising if he didn't have "Mommy issues."

I can't agree that Éowyn is a Mary Sue, however. She's very complex, and there are plenty of readers who dislike her--not because she's annoyingly perfect and she forces all the characters to worship her, but because they think she's irresponsible and emotionally stunted. Personally, I waver a lot on whether I like her or not; I experience the same mixture of feelings that I would toward a real person, which I think is the mark of a well-drawn character.

[SpaceWeavil]

With the Feanor / Miriel situation, I think a lot of that was character development for Feanor. Miriel's giving up her fea after Feanor's birth demonstrated that Feanor's fea was more powerful and fervant than the norm, as it took so much out of his mother to give birth to him. That then sets the scene for Feanor to be a great figure in the history of Middle-earth.

It also helps the plot along for Feanor's conflict with his half-brothers, with the whole Miriel - Finwe - the other one beginning with I whose name has totally flown out of my head right now.

I think that all adds to an interesting situation that, in a literary sense, buils up tension and conflict between the characters left behind. So Miriel is more than just a victim - she is integral to the plot of the Silmarillion and the development of the history of Middle-earth.

I'd be inclined to think the same with Finduilas of Dol Amroth - though she only gets a brief mention, the fact that we are told she died young and very unhappy adds a dimension to Denethor's character that makes him more than just a despot who goes slightly barking. If the movies had shown Denethor grieving for his one love, whom he had known for so short a time and still longed for, would he have seemed as unsympathetic as he did?

I agree that taking this approach, and including female characters only to enrich the characters of the male protagonists does mean that the females might not have the same depth, but again what I'm trying to say is that although they might not seem to have much weight in the text in themselves, they are all vital to the story and determine how the other characters act.

I think a lot of the female characters, for this reason, did suffer (like Celebrian, Finduilas, etc) but there were strong females as well, and being strong doesn't necessarily make them a 'Mary Sue'. Taking Galadriel, for instance, there is a plausible reason why she has the power and status she has by the Third Age - she is of the line of Finwe, the only one of that family to have survived the various wars of the First Age, and one who has seen incredible hardship and courage throughout her life. If Galadriel had been a weak character, she wouldn't have survived the crossing of the Helcaraxe, and therefore wouldn't be there at all. She's a product of the history of the place, rather than a Mary-sue for no reason, IMO. Therefore I'd say that, given the life Galadriel has had, she is entirely believable as a character.

As for Nerdanel, I wouldn't be so inclined to list her in with the victims. Yes, she has a tragic element to her character in that we can assume her place was usurped by a load of little shiny things her husband made, but Nerdanel was a smith in her own right, and it is hinted in the Silmarillion that she was also a strong character. To be honest, the fact that she stayed her ground and remained in Aman despite the oath and her husband's conviction to leave, makes me think she had some mettle in her (excuse the slight pun).

So to be honest, I think it depends on how you look at the female characters. To be perfectly frank, some of the male characters aren't all that well drawn out either, and others are extremely wise / powerful / fantastic etc. And I agree with Neni that a man from that time, educated at Oxbridge, would be more tended towards male characters. The fact that he includes strong women at all gets him points in my book, compared to some other writers from the time.

And if you want middle-of-the-road females, what about Arwen? She's never really overly described as pretty or magical or fantastic in the way that Luthien is, but she also has an element of tragedy in her character, in her choice for Aragorn. Again she could be seen as merely a plot device to motivate Aragorn, but as a character in her own right, I would say she is fairly balanced.

This is all just my opinion, you understand and I'm not saying other folks' views of the characters are wrong, merely that I look at it a different way. *shrug*

And I'm bored and stuck at home with flu and a lot of time on my hands, so there you go, Al, you got an answer....

[ghettoelleth]

Indis

[SpaceWeavil]

[inglor]

[ghettoelleth]

Si

[Neniel]

Yeap, that's Ghetto alright... Funny thing is, at least now I won't forget Indis again (whom I never manage to remember either SW!)

But I completely agree with everything SW said. There are all kinds of characters in Tolkien's world. The fact alone that the LotR was an adventure puts the female characters in a disadvantage. And Tolkien did have some very advanced opinions for his time as far as women are concerned.

Still, this is a very interesting subject, it was great that Alassante took the chance to bring it up!

[JaneDoe]

[Alassante]

I did not know about Tolkien's mother but knowing that now explains alot. When I said the women were Mary Sue I just meant they were more than average female. While I think she was a tough cookie, I am not sure I like Eowyn or not mostly because of the way fanon portrays her I think. I think canon wise she was likable but fanon ruined it. I liked her in the movie when she took on the Witch King and whooped up on him. I completely agree that Nerdanel could hold her own. Not only did she have Feanor to contend with but their seven sons. I am sure any woman that can handle seven headstrong sons as well as Mr. Bad-ass Noldor had to be pretty tough. I just meant that I am sure her sons resented her staying behind so they had mommy issues after that.

Thanks for all of the great responses - I knew someone on this site would know!

[Cressida]

[Rhapsody]

Well Tolkien does have a thing for getting both parents killed..

Frodo: parents drowned in a boating accident
Éowyn & Éomer: loose both their parents at an early age..
Elrond &Elors: were just kids when Elwing fled to Ëarendil..

Just a random observation..

[Eruanna]

The foster parent situation must have been partially a JRRT thing, as well, his having been orphaned so young.

Aragorn and Beren...both fostered by Elves.

Then there is Tuor....

--Eruanna