| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Rhapsody wrote: | I will look for you, and even so, there are some things Tolkien never could never decide on. Celeborn is one example of it. And for the Lay of Leithian for example, in one of the first drafts, instead of Beren, Maglor is mentioned. Go figure.  |
I am fairly sure there is nothing mentioned that would say they weren't twins, but there might be some little hint that, with a twist of logic, would mean one had to be older or something.
I looked into all this when I was doing stories like Grey Havens and Spectre, but I'm the first to admit I sometimes don't think very well about things.
At least those two stories are complete and fairly short, so if it does come down to deleting them, it won't muck up like a big WIP or something. This is one of the drawbacks to writing fan fiction in this arena though. Just seems like no matter how many times you trawl through UT and HoME there is always something missed, that means your whole story is flawed from the start.
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Neniel
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 147
Location: Hiding from the men in white. Contrary to common belief, psychiatrists are *very* sneaky people
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But there is some symmetry in Elrond and Elros being twins, if Elladan and Elrohir were as well (considering that they were born on the same year), isn't there? The story of the two twins being separated is one of my favorite ones and the one I place among the most tragic! Please do not say that it isn't so in the end!
_________________
Dubbed Neni by the sweet OSA raving lunatics 
http://www.livejournal.com/users/nenielsildurien/
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Never be afraid to try something new.
A lone amateur built the Arc. A group of professionels built the Titanic.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Neniel wrote: | | But there is some symmetry in Elrond and Elros being twins, if Elladan and Elrohir were as well (considering that they were born on the same year), isn't there? The story of the two twins being separated is one of my favorite ones and the one I place among the most tragic! Please do not say that it isn't so in the end! |
Well that was why I liked the idea, since Elladan and Elrohir were twins.
I'm hoping Rhaps doesn't find anything to say otherwise, as it means at least two, maybe four of my stories have to get completely scrapped 
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can think of one other reason Elrond and Elros were twins. The way other twins are named. Amrod-Amras, Elrohir-Elladan, Elured-Elurin. Very similar sounding names. This is indirect but...
Also, they are always mentioned together, except after they made the choice. While other sets of brothers were usually mentioned separately.
But it is hard to not let Fanon seep into your view of Arda.
Inglor
_________________
Hi, My name is Inglor and I am a Tolkien Geek (sub-species: Silgeek)
Owner of the phrase: "merciless attention" so authorized by Viv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Space, I did find something, just getting it all together. It is buried deeply, but I did find something. 
_________________
I have not lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere...
Maglor's bard & Celegorm's play pal
Nazgul #5 in charge anything liquid or edible things
Icon made by Carnage in c minor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhapsody wrote: | | Space, I did find something, just getting it all together. It is buried deeply, but I did find something. |
Put me out of my misery here - if they're not twins, I have 7 stories to delete (some of which I love to bits, so I am so hoping they at least *could* be twins)
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There are four versions of the Tale of the years (in book eleven of HOME). There is a lot mentioned in there that never made it to the books or have been abandoned. In two versions there is something mentioned. It is an eight page document, for example the Sons of Fëanor did more then ever was written, it is Maedhros who fostered Elwing's sons (not Maglor), Maedhros fore sworn his oath.., Eonwe is a fellow mariner of Earendil... so um.. Christopher does explain why the versions differ, so it's on the way to you to read the reasoning behind it. The good news is that one of the version wants to equal statements made in UT.
Don't pull your stories though because it is mentioned, but there are more things mentioned in there.. And I have a couple of plotbunnies attached to my ankles right now It should be in your inbox right now.
_________________
I have not lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere...
Maglor's bard & Celegorm's play pal
Nazgul #5 in charge anything liquid or edible things
Icon made by Carnage in c minor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhapsody wrote: | There are four versions of the Tale of the years (in book eleven of HOME). There is a lot mentioned in there that never made it to the books or have been abandoned. In two versions there is something mentioned. It is an eight page document, for example the Sons of Fëanor did more then ever was written, it is Maedhros who fostered Elwing's sons (not Maglor), Maedhros fore sworn his oath.., Eonwe is a fellow mariner of Earendil... so um.. Christopher does explain why the versions differ, so it's on the way to you to read the reasoning behind it. The good news is that one of the version wants to equal statements made in UT.
Don't pull your stories though because it is mentioned, but there are more things mentioned in there.. And I have a couple of plotbunnies attached to my ankles right now It should be in your inbox right now. |
Thanks Rhaps (stopping freaking now...)
That actually does make me feel slightly more sane, as I was thinking for a while there that I had read the twin thing in print somewhere, and that would be what it is, as War of the Jewels was one of my latest acquisitions. (eventually I will have them all).
Actually I have a new plotbunny about Elrond and Elros being found, after reading a bit in Letters about why they were named (and it was just so cute). But then I have far too many stories...urgh.
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SpaceWeavil wrote: |
Thanks Rhaps (stopping freaking now...) |
I am so sorry  I never looked into these two guys this much (besides reading the Silm and UT a couple of times), so I was just very curious.
| SpaceWeavil wrote: |
That actually does make me feel slightly more sane, as I was thinking for a while there that I had read the twin thing in print somewhere, and that would be what it is, as War of the Jewels was one of my latest acquisitions. (eventually I will have them all). |
They are all worth it. I have them all and I am using them a lot. I am particulary fond of Sauron defeated.
| SpaceWeavil wrote: |
Actually I have a new plotbunny about Elrond and Elros being found, after reading a bit in Letters about why they were named (and it was just so cute). But then I have far too many stories...urgh. |
*glowers at the new plotbunnies* I went through it and thought... no no no, I don't want to be intrigued by it... go away..
Anyway , I am so sorry about the distress.
_________________
I have not lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere...
Maglor's bard & Celegorm's play pal
Nazgul #5 in charge anything liquid or edible things
Icon made by Carnage in c minor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhapsody wrote: | | Anyway , I am so sorry about the distress. |
Not your fault. I mean, if I could actually read things and remember where I read them and if I actually did read them or just made it up, I wouldn't get all panicky, 
Having sat through an hour of not just the wrong lecture but the wrong subject today, my brain just isn't really up to much 
Anyway, the HoME series is definitely a breeding ground for plotbunnies, as are the Letters. I need to get the last couple of volumes I'm still missing. My problem is though that I need to make a list of what I have and what I need.
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yavanie
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
YOu know Space (and other writers) just 'cause you learn a presumption you based your story on was incorrect, it doesn't mean you should delete such a good work. If you feel that strongly about it, put a one line disclaimer at the beginning ,
"... since writing this story I've learned that......hope you enjoy it anyway. "
tha should be enough to avoid undue criticism and encourage others to go ahead and write even when we haven't ferreted out each minute detail hidden in the 10 + volumes of material available.
I mean with all the info out there since LotR was published, no one can be expected to know EVERYTHING, I mean like, I think it was Viv, said - even the professor changed his mind.
_________________
Yavanie
...I understand the sadness of the Elves, and I have seen Mordor.
To be older and wiser you must first be younger and stupider. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yavanie wrote: | | I mean with all the info out there since LotR was published, no one can be expected to know EVERYTHING, I mean like, I think it was Viv, said - even the professor changed his mind. |
Plenty of times actually. They make great plotholes or bunnies to explore
_________________
I have not lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere...
Maglor's bard & Celegorm's play pal
Nazgul #5 in charge anything liquid or edible things
Icon made by Carnage in c minor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah I am behind Yavanie on this one. Those HoME books are great but if you have conflicting accts (Silmillion vs. HoME or something) I wouldn't say either are wrong. To me the HoME is interesting information but the ones I have on the LOTR section flat out contridicts the book many times so I would still base my stuff on the LOTR book vs. HoME. Just do what I did when I found out about that evil manuscript AKA LACE after I wrote the story - make a note you never read it and neither did your characters! Now I know about it, I might choose not to follow it and make a note that I made that decision.
LACE is like the pirate code - its more like "guidelines".
_________________
Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
http://alikat7.livejournal.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Icon by Alassante! Wow!
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Also, I know HoME is not alway considered canon, but it does specifically refer to Elrond and Elros as twins:
Volume V: The Lost Road and Other Writings (p 167 in the Ballanetine Edition):
| Quote: | | The Peringuil, the Half Elven, were born of Elwing wife of Earendel, while Earendel was at sea, the twin brethen Elrond and Elros. |
So it seems Tolkien did at least at one time intend for them to be twins.
_________________
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.
Ultima ratio regum (The Last Argument of Kings)--engraved on all French cannons by order of Louis XIV |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alassante wrote: | Yeah I am behind Yavanie on this one. Those HoME books are great but if you have conflicting accts (Silmillion vs. HoME or something) I wouldn't say either are wrong. To me the HoME is interesting information but the ones I have on the LOTR section flat out contridicts the book many times so I would still base my stuff on the LOTR book vs. HoME. Just do what I did when I found out about that evil manuscript AKA LACE after I wrote the story - make a note you never read it and neither did your characters! Now I know about it, I might choose not to follow it and make a note that I made that decision.
LACE is like the pirate code - its more like "guidelines". |
Where HoME contradicts LotR then yeah, I don't have a problem, but if it turns out that there's nothing in any of the texts to support something I've written and there is mention of something that contradicts it (as opposed to evidence on either side) then I wouldn't feel comfortable about having the story up.
I mean, there is a part of The Lost Road where Elrond is king of Numenor. That didn't get much of a thought when I was writing 'Spectre at the Feast', lol.
_________________
Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Live Journal Feed
